Transmen in the Women's restroom?
Submitted June 16, 2020, 1:15 a.m. by DahliaSummersSo I got redirected to this sub to ask this question and I hope that it's okay to ask here. So I recently got into a debate with a TIM and we eventually go the topic of bathrooms. Naturally I said that men had no business being in the women's restroom including "transwomen" and obviously he disagreed with me but then he flung at me transmen. He was going off the angle that "some transwomen look "cis" and you'd never know they were trans". He then used Transmen. He said that if someone like Buck Angel walked into the women's restroom, women would be freaked out and tell him to leave.
And I have to admit that yeah, Buck Angel does look like a man and even though we know she's a woman, I think too what if I didn't know that? If I saw her in a women's restroom, I would think she is just a creepy man.
So my question is how do you feel about transmen like Buck Angel or someone like this or this being in the women's restroom? Would you be wary if you saw these kinds of women in a women's restroom?
Watch a video of Buck Angel (Meghan Murphy did an interview earlier this year) and you might get a very different impression.
TRA's love to pull out Buck as their "gotcha" because they know very few people will look up what Buck is actually like in real life or what Buck believes in.
I actually watched that interview! I noticed a few things off with Buck's story that clearly showed she suffered from a case of internalized homophobia based on some of the experienced she faced as a butch lesbian.
I'll be aware of them trying to use her as they're "gotcha". Though I was talking with a friend and we got into a bit of an argument where I was saying that transwomen don't belong in the men's restroom to which she obviously disagreed saying that if they "look like a woman", they should be allowed in, it's not a big deal and then used the transman example of a manly man entering a women's restroom.
If they looked like women no one would have noticed. But we do. Because they do not look like women.
For the most yeah, it's totalyl noticeable whether it's their anatomy like wide shoulders or big hands or something as simple as poorly done makeup.
I would be taken aback, but only if they fully passed as men. However, to be clear, I don’t have a problem with women in the women’s room - even masculine looking women - because this is a safety issue, and women are not really a threat. I think the main issue becomes distinguishing who belongs and who doesn’t. Every transman I have ever personally known (dozens) were very obviously female.
That being said, this question always confuses the living shit out of me. I don’t understand why QT folks will ask this question like some kind of gotcha - “well do you think this SUPER MANLY MAN LOOKING PERSON BELONGS IN THE WOMEN’s ROOM! HAHA GOTTEM!” but completely fail to see the irony that they are asking me to accept completely manly looking men in dresses into the women’s room.
It’s almost like they understand my discomfort with a man in the women’s room but deliberately refuse to acknowledge that most trans women look like men in wigs, so I’m going to have the same discomfort with them as I might with a manly looking transman.
I think we should be thinking about the real fears of women in sex segregated spaces - I don’t enter spaces that I know will make others uncomfortable. I certainly don’t enter them and make a big show taking forever, talking to strangers, doing a bunch of ridiculous makeup nonsense and taking a thousand selfies in the mirror with minor girls in the background like trans women like to do because of how “validating” it is to be in this space that isn’t meant for them, all the while looking like a man in a skirt set.
It’s a frustrating position to be in, but I think I would generally wish that people would look in the mirror, appraise whether they would make females uncomfortable in female spaces, and then make their decision from there what they should do considering a vulnerable and traumatized population’s feelings.
I do agree with everything you said, I'm new to the whole Trans debate after having my own peak trans experience having to do with JK Rowling but so much of it just makes sense. I do think that if a transmen "passes" that well, she's better off using the men's room because she would be fine. Because realistically since these people are so delusional, I don't think a "passing" transman would use a womens restroom because in her mind, she thinks she looks enough like a man to pass. I feel like it's totally different if the transman comes back to reality but has now ruined her body and may not be able to go back so I'm sure if she explained her situation, women would understand.
As for the transwoman being in women's restroom, some people will usually just use the whole "Well what about transwomen who look like Blaire White? Do you think "she" should be in the men's room looking like that?"
To answer about Blair, yes, she should go in the men’s. She is huge and doesn’t pass.
Right. I saw this one picture that I assume someone else took and I was shocked at how wide set his shoulders were and even his face looked very different from what it looks like in videos. I assume he's using face editing software when it comes to videos because man it was like I was looking at a different person.
But I had to bring him up because he's the one these kinds of people bring up when it comes to the bathroom. Him or Natalie (Contrapoints).
He had facial feminizing surgery somewhat recently. He also has a video about going into the men's room. Nick has issues too, and looks like a strange chimera now that his face is done too, but then shows off his huge shoulders.
But see that's the thing, even after his "FFS", nothing changed. Look at this leaked photo of him without the makeup and filters and this is after the FFS. The only thing that changed was his hairline was lowered and his nose bridge shaved down. He still looks like male.
And this is Nick without the fancy lights and filtering as well. He still looks male.
I really don't think these "FFS" do much of anything except make it easier to use face editing programs to smooth out your features more.
It’s ridiculous - it’s like a gotcha. Nevermind the 1000s of gross middle aged dudes in bad party city wigs boasting about their boners and taking dick pics in the toilets. They are like dogs marking their territory.
In a crass, perverse way, absolutely haha. It's just. I never thought we'd be dealing with something like this in 2020. This is where we are at now? lol
My easy answer is passing transmen and all transwomen should use the men’s room. But tbh I find that the more I pay attention to features like brow ridge, facial width, overall build, and gait and not superficial features like hair it becomes harder and harder for people to “pass” to me.
I can kinda see what you mean about noticing certain features that give it away. Like there's this person who comes into my job who I'm sure is trans because while he has big boobs, his body shape looks narrow lacking any slight curve and his voice just sounds like a effeminate gay man's. I didn't recognize this at first but the person is a repeat customer and the more I saw this person, the more I started noticing.
Transmen are a trickier one because tesosterone hits a lot of them like a freight train and you have to really look to notice if something is off outside of the usually mutilated breast which would be a give away.
I do agree with you that passing transmen should use the men's room along with the "transwoman" because the passing transman will be fine anyway. But then I just know if I say this, I'll get the "That's hypocrisy, so why can't a "passing" transwoman use the women's restroom?"
previously before the scrutiny on bathroom bills, passing transwomen used woman’s bathrooms and passing transmen used men’s bathrooms. i think this went over with both those trans people and the natal women.
however, i don’t think it’s right or logistically feasible to legislate the concept of “passing”. thus, i’d rather have the law protect same-sex bathrooms, and let the passing transwomen sneak through than allow everyone into woman’s bathrooms.
the law usually does not hold up in every single individual situation, but that does not mean it should be abolished. jaywalking is illegal. people are rarely punished, often no one is harmed by jaywalking, and sometimes jaywalking can be crucial if you are running away from a harasser — anecdotally, it seems sexual harassment from men increases at “Do Not Go” crosswalks. all this does not mean the law should support our right to walk around in the road as we please.
So essentially what you're saying is that by law you don't think it's right for men to use women's restrooms and women to use men's rooms but if they "pass", they should be allowed to do so?
i believe the law should protect sex-segregated bathrooms, but pragmatically it is a difficult law to enforce. men and women who “pass” will likely not run into trouble, and these populations — particularly transwomen who pass — experience risk in using sex-specific bathrooms.
Right but talking about a transwoman getting attacked in a mens restroom, isn't this more a case of male on male violence and that the issue should be taken up among men? I mean why is it our responsibility to protect transwomen when they won't even stand up for themselves?
i believe male violence against transwomen is entirely the fault of the perpetrating men; however, it is oversimplifying to categorize it as bog standard men on men violence.
non-passing transwomen are subject to male violence due to homophobia. similarly to gay men, they are punished for gender non-conforming behavior. interestingly, there is almost no push for gay men to be included in women’s spaces, even though they experience increased risk of male violence—particularly in men’s prisons.
on the other hand, passing transwomen who live “stealth” likely experience male violence due to sexism. they are targeted due to the assumption that they have female biology.
in fact, i would argue a passing transwoman experiences some degree of “sex-based” discrimination because they appear at first glance to be female-bodied. for example, a passing transwomen may be paid less by an employer due to the assumption that she is biologically female and may leave the workforce to get pregnant.
unfortunately, passing—and gender itself—is a spectrum, while sex-based protections must rely on discrete categorization to be protections at all.
Eh I would argue that the "passing" transwoman is still experiencing a form of homophobia. I mean let's think about it for a moment. Yeah the straight guy may assume that man is a woman because he's done up so much to the point where he can look "passable" at first glance but once he notices that the person is actually a man, the dude has a panic moment because for an instance, he found another man sexually attractive and he's mortified by that. It's because hyper feminine nonconforming men are so rare to see so some simple-minded people don't think it's possible for a man to look pretty or beautiful lol.
Either way I feel like it still needs to be discussed between men. The men are the ones causing the violence and not facing much penalty for it.
I know I sound harsh but it's like, women had to go through this kind of fight in order to get our spaces and I just don't like seeing them disruptive because some dude who likes to wear dresses and makeup won't stand up for himself. They have male strength to, use it. Again, I know it sounds simple-minded but I just can't think of anything else. It's either these men start standing up for themselves or we push for a unisex/third bathroom to be implemented. I don't think we women need to accommodate a kind of man.
It's not really about who's passing or not, but that the law is able to give girls and women the legal means to kick a TIM out if his presence makes her feel unsafe or uncomfortable.
There's a big difference between 'TIMs may use it if no one minds' vs 'TIMs have the right to be there'.
You put it into words perfectly. I often say that I feel it should be an honor system, and that I wish people using the restroom would consider how others felt rather than just themselves. If they did that, I truly doubt there would be problems - and if there is a predator, it would still be protected to eject them.
At first glance maybe, and it’s hard to tell from a static 2D picture. But there are 6500 biological differences between men and women, it would only take a few seconds of observation to recognise what they are if it’s IRL - 2 million years of evolution to determine who is a potential threat or reproductive partner isn’t undone by 5 years of gender theory and performing stereotypes. Maybe males don’t notice what we do as women because they are generally not very observant, but trans-identified people never pass with me.
Even someone like Blaire White? I would say Contrapoints but he comes off really creepy to me. I've heard the word "Autogynephile" before but I don't know much about it but I feel like that applies to him? But I hear over and over how Blaire white is "passable". I don't really see it but that's just me.
Yep. Blair White is a large human. I don’t want to be in the toilets with someone with a penis, and certainly not when my daughters are in there. If they are AGP it’s a fetish, they get off on it, women should not be forced to be props for indulging some gross guy’s boner. It enrages me that him listening to me or any other women urinating or tending to menstruation would be masturbation fodder.
Right and I do understand you. But then these guys will just say "NOT ALL TRANS" And sure, the gay "transwomen" are not usually the ones harassing women but it doesn't matter, it's the principle of allowing men as a class into our spaces and they have no business being in here but say that and you're a "TERF".
Agree entirely.
It used to be that transexuals could look in the mirror and observe how people react to them, and then judge whether they'd get more funny looks from men in the men's room or from women in the lady's room. It maybe isn't the best system, but it works. Lot of transgenders today don't seem to want to blend in as their chosen gender. They want to be validated as special versions of men and women without doing the work to be taken seriously. I think this applies more to transwomen than transmen. Transmen aren't scheming to get into men's rooms without consideration for whether or not they're welcome there.
A transman needs to figure that out for herself. If she takes a bunch of testosterone, she's deliberately making it so that she'll get funny looks in the lady's room. She should use the men's room if she can do so incognito. If she's still recognizably female looking, she should use the lady's room.
The rest of us need to learn to accept gender non-conforming females in female spaces and gender non-conforming males in male spaces. But, also, TRAs need to stop putting the responsibility on women. We're told we need to pick up men's slack - accept gender non-conforming males in our spaces to protect them from the men who refuse to accept them in theirs.
I agree with this. And I also agree that we need to be more accepting of gender nonconforming women and men. I'm working on this myself. I admit that I used to not understand why a woman would want to look masculine but as I studied more about femininsm and how femininity is borderline socialized onto women, I started to look at it differently and now I think it's a choice but whether a woman chooses to be feminine or masculine, it doesn't matter, she's still a woman regardless of how she chooses to look. And I feel the same way for men though I just don't see many gender nonconforming men, they're all calling themselves "Trans" now it seems.
And this is what pisses me off. Why is it our responsibility to protect these men when this is clearly a male on male issue. If women can learn to accept masculine women, men should be able to accept feminine men and I just find it annoying how these "tranwomen" do not fight for themselves, expecting us to do the labor for them.
Luckily, this is the majority opinion among women. Don't let the vocal, tragically influential, minority fool you. Women don't want men in our spaces, and we aren't going to give up our sex-based rights without a fight. Men will be ineffectual as usual. We can't count on them.
How about this? Use the restroom where you fit in best. If you keep getting confronted for being in the wrong bathroom, guess what - you're in the wrong bathroom. Go to the other one.
What do y'all radfems think of that?
I agree with this. But it doesn't satiate some of those trans-identified people. They would just say something along the lines that "It doesn't matter how you feel about me, I am a REAL WOMAN. You have no right to keep me out". And then of course the useful idiots will just go with it with their insipid chant of "Transwomen are women".
I am always wary in a multi-user restroom, it's not a safe place. I think there should be a double standard. A women's room is a protected space, whereas anyone should be able to use the men's. But, they are the worst. Men are such losers they complain about 3yr old girls in there. If you stay in GC spaces, you will see the pattern that it's always the women's room which becomes unisex.
I've actually kinda noticed that when I think back. Women's rooms were always the designated places that had to be unisex and I'm just like, why?
Notice that it's always about how EVERYONE should be allowed in the female restroom, but no one throws their fits about letting them into the men's room.
I'd like to take a moment to highlight that female restrooms had been of interest to feminists long before transgender "bathroom bills" were discussed.
Toilets as a Feminist Issue: A True Story was published through Berkeley Law in 1991 and written by a black American woman. It describes how the situation in the US, including places such as universities, was and is inequitable and this is a tool of oppression against both women and people of color.
Women's needs, women's action: toilet development in urban and rural communities of india is a PhD thesis written in 2006. Admittedly I've only read the first section at this time (the entire paper is rather long), but it touches on how access to public toilets specifically concerns women's health and ability to participate in the public sphere.
Secondly, the dismantling of any female only space should be of concern to feminists. Not only because they are a shelter from male violence but also the refuge from patriarchal oppression they provide. This beautifully written article Why People of Color Need Spaces Without White People analyzes this idea through the perspective of race, but many of its points apply similarly to sex.
It is also important to remember that legally redefining sex for bathrooms would have ramifications for women's shelters and prisons.
All of this is to frame my perspective that while, yes, I may be uncomfortable were I to encounter a transman in a women's restroom this is due to my discomfort with anyone who appears to be disregarding others' boundaries and not because I oppose their presence. Females need access to single sex spaces and the presence of transmen in the women's restroom does not threaten our right to those spaces.
I always say that if someone is 100% passing, then it's really a non-issue, isn't it? Because what they really want is for any rando perv to be able to wake up tomorrow, do absolutely nothing other than say "i'm a woman!" and we should be expected to allow him to prance about in the ladies. There is no boundary, as far as they are concerned. So the minute we say "ok we're ok with these transwomen coming in", they'll be working to push that boundary (because isn't that what they've already done?).
I think a) many more transmen pass than transwomen, and b) i think men simply don't pay as much attention as women do, probably since they have a lot less to fear in such spaces than women do, so they're less likely to clock a transman than we are.
That said, I think we should all work to be more comfortable with gnc people in our restrooms. So if i see a really 'butch' woman in the restroom, even transman butch, i should be safe to assume that said person IS female, and is in the appropriate space.
Trans men on women's bathrooms are not the problem, actually, most trans men feel safer in women's spaces. The problem is allowing trans women on women's bathrooms, why should safe spaces for women be the default safe space for trans women? Why do we need to risk that predators who pretend to be trans women enter women's safe places? Why should we risk women's safety at all?
Why isn't the discussion: Trans women should be able to use their bathrooms (men's bathrooms) without fearing men would hurt them?
Because we're expected to be the caretakers. We're expected to put aside our own concerns and well-being for men and when we don't, we're considered evil or "Terfs" in this case. And it's like fuck that noise, I'm not gonna feel bad about wanting to protect fellow women and girls. We have no obligation to allow "transwomen" into our spaces. What these men should be doing is taking a stand and standing up to the men who push them around. I will support them in their fight to use the men's restroom without being assaulted or harassed but that's as far as it goes, you aren't coming into the women's room when you're not a woman.
I would certainly feel unsettled if a man, or someone who looks like a man came into female toilets. Public toilets are anxiety inducing environments for me, having been assaulted on many occasions by men. With that being said though I have also been assaulted in public toilets by a woman, so I just steer clear of everyone and never use public toilets any more.
I mean I'm the same wherein I really try not to use public restrooms unless I really cannot hold it but still, if a transman passes that well, she's better off using the men's restroom unless she doesn't mind explaining to women in the women's room but that can lead to problems because then men can start trying to pull the same thing. So that's why I'd just tell these women to use the mens restroom or the family restroom.