Displaying results 1 through 50 of 3697 entries found.

Submitted by VrHastaLaMuerteBaby on Jan. 13, 2021, 3:21 p.m. 12 comments
Submitted by Chaneeth on Jan. 13, 2021, 2:39 p.m. 4 comments

I wouldn't describe myself as an incel. But as a gay man who happens to be a total bottom and not into hookups, who also lives in a more traditional society, it sometimes feels like I'm hopelessly alone. Over the past half year I've grown to appreciate the femcel and FDS perspective (where I am strictly a viewer). I've read the male incel narrative, and I just cannot relate to it at all, because it comes from a place of raw male entitlement.

[Warning: this post will be long and it is a part analysis of my experience with men. Consider this the perspective of an introverted gay agnostic mid-twenties Arab man. Where I write ‘men’ you can read it as ‘most men’]

  • Part I: Double standards in the realm of friendship

[conclusion: men do not see a value in friendship for friendship's sake, it must yield a value. This value can be 'low' or 'high', as defined by men]

Let me start with the part that most gay men, even tops and vers, can relate to.

So, on this level, men dually hold low or no standards and also very high standards. On the friendship plane, they will have shitty friends; party friends, fwb's, high-school-like groupies where they just talk about sex and trashing other (gay) men, etc. At the same time, they understand that these friends are crap so they don't involve them with anything meaningful. That is reserved only for higher quality friends, whom they either don't involve with the gay aspect of their lives, or only allow it to come marginally into conversation. Typically, this latter type of relationships is formed through work, hobbies, proximity, and other places where men of all orientations get to socialize.

What does this mean for me? It means I cannot form friendships easily with men, whatever their orientation is. You see, I am not ugly, but I am small. My height is normal but I am a bit underweight and have narrow hips and shoulders. So, I am typically the smallest man any place I go. I am definitely the smallest and most "delicate" man at the gym I go to. Anyway, I mention this because, coupled with my traditionally weak and shy personality, it makes me very forgettable to men. From school to the workplace, men simply overlook me.

How does this relate to the point above it? First, I refuse to do hookups or engage in shitty small talk. I've tried it before, not for me. I do engage in gossip with the few good friends I have for sure, but I don't keep people around just for that purpose. Second, I don't immediately strike anyone as particularly useful. Sure, I have great utility at work, but I don't serve a particular purpose to people in my life, and do not build friendships based on utility. I've tried that too, and it just made me feel shit.

So, then, you might ask, if I have such high standards, then why do the men who have high standards for friendship not befriend me? It is actually because they do not see the value in feeling, empathetic, and thinking types as me. To them, the high standard is having friends that serve a purpose, and emotional support isn't something they give or expect from friends, they have addictions for that purpose (anything from porn to alcohol to reddit).

Why do men not see the value of introspection and empathy? I think it is because they are socialized into the belief that the world is theirs and that the most important thing for them is to experience everything; it is all there waiting for them to wander into and exploit it however they see fit. That’s why men build empires and big businesses that destroy the planet and overwork their underlings into a miserable and unfulfilling life. Traditional cultures force men into marriage and pile them with expectations after that in order to hold & still them by breaking their spirit, otherwise they’d have no reason to even experience empathy.

I'm sure that my dad not being present in my life outside of financing it also helped immensely in making me feel very isolated and unable to relate to men, but let's not branch off.

  • Part II: Double standards in the realm of love & sex

[conclusion: want love? you better look amazing or somehow manage to make a man care about you and not just about your looks. also, gay men have it better in some ways and in other ways, not]

For friendship, women and a few introspective men luckily exist. When it comes to love, I have not had such fortune.

As with friendships, men have double standards in the realm of love. Here, men have both zero- and very high standards. For a hookup situation, a man will want and look for anything. For a serious relationship, all men have very high standards, particularly when it comes to looks.

For this reason you need to be very careful as to how you are desired by a man. The experienced player will make it hard for you to tell the nature of his attraction. Luckily for me as a gay man, they usually don't invest much into faking it because there are many, many options for hooking up. On this particular point, women have my full sympathy.

Now, what's unique about being a gay man? It is that men's high standards for love are not tempered by anything. He either really wants you, or you are going to get hurt. No children to hold him to you, no societal pressure for him to stay with you or treat you in a special way. If he decides to leave you because he got bored of you, or because you no longer fit his high standards, then there are zero repercussions for him on cheating or simply ending the relationship. This is why gay men have to look flawless, for otherwise they would be invisible to other gay men.

And, as you know, men are ruthless in shaming their sex of interest into fitting their standards for physical attraction. So you have gay communities where shame is so strong you can practically drown in it. If you don't look the best version of yourself then you better not go alone to the gay beach or bar or whatever event you want to go to, because chances are high that you will leave there feeling completely alienated and maybe even suicidal. As I described myself above, even though I go to gym and am relatively healthy and fit, I still get ignored because I don't neatly fit any particular category that is typically desired.

So, why did I place special emphasis on being a bottom when I started this? The reason is that gay men shame each other for being the receptive partner, even when they are the penetrative partner! So you have tops and vers men shaming bottoms for (always) being in the passive and receptive role. You know, the same role that is necessary for these men to even be able to have sex with men. Bottoms also do shame each other. The common themes are: there are too many bottoms and not nearly enough tops, bottoms are too feminine, bottoms who have too much experience are whores, bottoms who don't are prudes and/or are not real bottoms, .... I guess this all sounds too familiar to women!

Of these is particularly painful the theme of there being too many bottoms in relation to tops. It implies that I am at a disadvantage when it comes to finding fulfilling love in an already disadvantaged and uniquely marginalized demographic. I find solace in the fact that the little research that exists online and my experience with the community seem to imply that it is actually not true, but the rhetoric is so pervasive online and on social media that I constantly have to remind myself that it is not true.

So, just to bind the two parts together, men will avoid interacting with you if they do not find you interesting in the sense that you can provide them with a desirable value (your money, connections, hot friends, some utility) or are desirable in your own self (physically attractive, share an interest, fit their type) so if you are the shy and introspective type, and are not particularly interesting on the outward, then you are going to have a hard time.

I realise that this post comes off as a massive rant, but I feel that I needed to write this out of my frustration from years of trying to connect with (gay) men and being constantly shut down and disappointed, and the ramifications thereof (accepting "friends" who actually just wanted to fuck, rushing headlong into a relationship with the first nice man I could find, experiencing low value friendships, entertaining low value interest, loneliness and feeling isolated). All that I had really wanted was to find acceptance, new connections, and experiencing a loving relationship with another man.

Submitted by igaveuponem on Jan. 12, 2021, 4:02 p.m. 7 comments

I have a thing for ugly girls, I’m just curious about what I could do.

Submitted by sleepy_daimon on Jan. 12, 2021, 2:43 p.m. 46 comments

Hi everyone!

So, I just discovered this community and I am offering help to some girls who just want to talk.

If you are feeling somehow sad or just want to chit-chat just send me a DM, Ok?

I wanted to post it at TruFemcels, but I dont want to disturb that place.

Cheers! Things will get better.

Submitted by throwrabyvgap on Jan. 12, 2021, 6:43 a.m. 11 comments

I’ve done some things that I am not proud of and tried to work it out with my then girlfriend, she had no faith that I could change. How do you all feel.

Like will your body just stay there and rot until someone notices you aren't showing up to work? Will your dog/cat end up eating your decomposing body? Maybe it's morbid but I think about stuff like this all the time.

I’m asking because I’m a virgin, I dated a boy for about a month and he kept trying to push me into sexual things, i was curious about it but I wanted to wait until we were serious. He left me for some Stacy who put out for him and I got left with a bunch of questions. One of which being this one.

Submitted by ihatebeingfemcel on Jan. 11, 2021, 6:27 p.m. 11 comments

Do you see attractive men on a daily basis? or is it rare to find good looking men in your city?

Submitted by shyguysombero on Jan. 11, 2021, 4:51 p.m. 15 comments

Communities like BDSM, comic, books, sports, hunting, Dungeons & Dragons or Yu-Gi-Oh cards.

Submitted by blackforcesarecool on Jan. 11, 2021, 4 p.m. 18 comments

Also do you find it off putting when a man does find you attractive?

The first one finds you beautiful, but is aware that not everyone thinks that of you. The latter is someone who genuinely thinks you are a 10 (even though you might not be, but he just thinks you are). Who would you choose?

Submitted by justpegmeffs on Jan. 11, 2021, 8:12 a.m. 45 comments

I’m asking genuinely. Why not just date them. I myself am not a femcel, I’m not anything like that. I’m an average to slightly above average woman, and I’m just very sympathetic for you all and I feel so bad that you all feel this way about yourselves.

Just so you know, having make attention isn’t all that fun. Most of it is just disingenuous men that want to use me like a flesh light and kick me out of their bed. Sex with men really isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be either unless you love them.

But back to my main question, why not find love in incels? They’re likely just as alone and want someone like you all are. It could be really great for everyone involved, it makes me feel really confident to have a man genuinely desire me, it might help you all too.

Submitted by EthiopianBrotha on Jan. 10, 2021, 5:03 p.m. 8 comments
Submitted by bigdickenergyqueen39 on Jan. 10, 2021, 1:23 a.m. 1 comment

I don't know anyone who I was close to or just knew in my life who killed themselves but my dad knew a lot of people who killed themselves, there were dealing with a lot of mental and physical issues that they killed themselves in the end because they couldn't take the pain anymore, they all had wives and children.

Submitted by miseryqueen69 on Jan. 9, 2021, 8:45 p.m. 22 comments

listen, i am VERY unattractive. i’m overweight (currently working on it), wear adult braces, have acne scars, saggy boobs, i mean the list goes on. i have been teased on multiple occasions for my hideous features, never been in a relationship, still a virgin, and none of the guys i like ever like me back. not to mention, i have been unsuccessful on nearly every dating app you could think of. however, i keep falling for really attractive guys that i know i have zero chance with thus creating a torturous cycle of unrequited love. i want to lower my standards and be more realistic in my choices of men (physically) being that i am unattractive myself but i’m really struggling with this. how do i lower my standards so i can prevent getting hurt from constantly chasing men i’ll never have a chance with?

Submitted by Trash_Opinion_ta on Jan. 9, 2021, 7:53 p.m. 13 comments

Whether it's about looks or other things, do you just bully the shit out of yourself?

For me, I'm probably my own worst bully. I constantly tell myself that I'm not good enough and that I've made a terrible mistake picking the career that I did. I feel like no matter what I do, I'll never be good enough for even the shittiest job and the only reason somebody might hire me for anything is because they pitied me.

Submitted by daveachapella on Jan. 9, 2021, 6:38 p.m. 6 comments

Im just wondering. I’m mentally ill and ive been on r/TFM since i was 15 — lurking at 15, posting at 16. Im currently 18 now.

I was most DEFINITELY femcel during middle scchool and most of high school, not doubting that. Being bullied, snide comments ab my appearance from friends family classmates and strangers, ostracism bc I wasnt pretty, etc.

At 18 i wonder if im femcel now though. I still think im ugly and i get depressed ab my apprarance but i think i might just be mentally ill tbh. Guys are no longer super mean to me or ignore me. Ive gotten a few compliments on my appearance but almost all of them were from other women or gay guys. Ive been “approached” romantically once while i was working but its a weird story and i was really more like second choice. (Coworker rejected/ignored the guy and was underage so he approached me).

Ive had a guy pursue me romantically aggressively and stalked me and i had to get a restraining order against him because he wouldnt leave me alone or stop harrassing me, but i dont think it was because i was beautiful, more because i was nice to him.

Ive never had a REAL boyfriend before and guys dont dm or approach me regularly like they do with most pretty girls. Most of my friends are stacies, my sisters a stacy, coworker is a stacy — i see how guys act around them, they get approached 24/7, i dont get even close to his in magnitude. Not a race thing bc my sister/friend/coworker are all black.

Have i ascended to a normie based on my experiences?

Submitted by RespHopeful86 on Jan. 9, 2021, 4:08 p.m. 37 comments

I'm a bit older, 34 so I just recently came upon this whole community. I didn't even know what all these terms meant until recently. (moid, stacy, chad, incel, femcel, normie) I feel like I was learning a new language. However here I am, and I'd like to say that many of you speak on things that only occur on the internet and Reddit. I can assure you that most of Reddit is NOT like real life, and every complaint I've seen on Reddit, I've literally seen the opposite occur in real life. I am not trying to put down your real life grievances though and some of these concerns are valid and have happened to yall in real life. Me and all my friends prefer darker skinned women, we love our Black, Latina, Indian women. They got so much flavor, the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice. It's not just me though, it's everywhere and I'm sorry for putting the White Femcels down here, but not all of us want a blonde girl ( I'm more of a brunette guy). I'm pretty sure the dudes that want White girls all live in other parts of the world and not so much western societies. Even if you see the trends on Instagram, all of these women are trying to look more ethnic, day by day. Anyways, I'm ranting. Yall look good as fuk, stop playin!

Submitted by angelicorgasm on Jan. 9, 2021, 8:50 a.m. 13 comments

I am really curious, I am ugly in the looks department and depressed about it and feel like therapy would be useless for my looks issues.

Submitted by BrosMadd on Jan. 9, 2021, 2:42 a.m. 19 comments

What could go wrong


ATF and the misc channel are both coed. Everything else is for verified femcels. Let's give it a shot. I may figure a voice channel later. K that's all for now

Submitted by lightmylifee on Jan. 9, 2021, 1:54 a.m. 17 comments

For example, 1. let's say you have no acne, have an average height, average chest size but you don't have something wow.

But for 2, you have a gorgeous eye colour, but a big nose, or you have a good figure but you're bellow 5'2 etc

Submitted by FairyisNSFW on Jan. 8, 2021, 8:12 p.m. 16 comments

Beauty is seen as this thing that is almost synonymous to goodness. To be beautiful is to be a good person.

You'll see girls say things like "only ugly bitches do xyz"

and I'm like, 'what did ugly girls do to you?"

recently a dark skinned black girl on tiktok was bullied for having dark skin, she was getting a lot of racial harassment from primarily black men and some white men. She committed suicide and is now in the hospital. I hope she survives.

But the response obviously is mostly people not caring, but from the people that do...it's condemnation of the bullying but a lot of "she is so beautiful" "why would they bully her she is so beautiful😭".

should they have bullied her if she were ugly?

people are arguing that she is beautiful instead of recognizing that whether random people on the internet perceives her as beautiful or not is not the point, but society treats people like her like non humans. There is so much de-humanization of people perceived to be ugly.

In most societies, having very dark skin is considered ugly and those with dark skin pay very heavy prices for it in discrimination.

We are at a point in society where there is this false sense of "everyone is beautiful" and i'm not here to debate who is beautiful and who isn't. But society already has an idea of who is beautiful and who isn't and treats the uglies badly. The "everybody is beautiful" bullshit is just as effective as the statement "all humans are equal" when discussing racism.

idk how to put my thoughts together, but it appears to me that people aren't ready to face and challenge the hierarchy of beauty. The privilege given to beautiful people and how society, our language, our cultures, our media, our interactions dehumanize those who are deemed ugly.

we see the privilege that beautiful people have and aspire to be beautiful too.

"If I'm beautiful, I'll feel good about myself"

"If I'm beautiful, that boy would like me"

"If i'm beautiful, I'll get nice and sweet comments re-affirming me that i have this good thing, this status"

"If i'm beautiful, people won't bully me for being ugly"

"If i'm beautiful, i'll get treated better"

we see beautiful being praised for just being beautiful...and we aspire for that.

Who doesn't want to be praised?

Beauty is also kind of like a status symbol. Because beauty is often associated with high status. when you're low status, i.e ugly... people want to put you "in your place" that is them re-inforcing that you're indeed low status, and when an ugly person tries to argue that they are indeed beautiful, they get backlash...people trying to "humble" them i.e again, putting them back in their place of low status, reminding them where they belong...with the uglies.

That is why there is a lot of backlash when people who society considers ugly try to claim they are beautiful. They are laughed at, bullied, bellittled, "too confident"

As we see with the backlash from the "body positivity" movement. You are delusional if you think the backlash is genuinely about "caring about their health".

there is a backlash when black women especially when dark skinned black women want to call themselves beautiful....people are ready to humble them.

Those are the only group of people who I feel challenge beauty standards...and so they receive backlash for it.

Others just bleach their skin or go through surgery...i.e conform. They do that to get better treatment or to benefit from the privilege that comes with being pretty.

Note: I am not debating who is beautiful and who isn't, more so interacting with how society views beauty and the consequences of those views. Western Society views having dark skin on a woman to be ugly and unfeminine.

I have a lot of regrets about how I lived my life up until this point.

I put too much focus on career/academics and not enough on how to talk to people and gain their approval (both men and women). I only now realize the importance of social currency. That's where true power lies, but nobody told me this. I had to recognize it for myself as I got older and had opportunities slip away or never even come to fruition.

I also would have told myself that I wasn't too ugly to date and to try dating at a younger age since I was better able to adapt/adjust at that time. I've been single so long that I'm not even sure how to have a partnership with someone.

So, what about you? What would you say?

Submitted by RegalDinosaur on Jan. 8, 2021, 6:10 p.m. 7 comments

Locationcels are a real phenomenen. For example in my country Sweden there are a lot of incels and very few femcels. In fact of the latter, I am not even aware of any aside of the former me and one other person that I was informed of. Sure they most likely exist but they seem non-existant compared to their male counterpart. I know a lot of Swedish incels and recently we discussed this and it made me think - did I only ascend because I lived in Sweden?

A quick google search shows that the male to female ratio of my country is 99.93 males to 100 females. Maybe that has something to do with it? Where are you all from and do you think your location all other variables equal have anything to do with it?

Submitted by Ecstatic_Band_431 on Jan. 8, 2021, 3:27 p.m. 36 comments
Submitted by YungBoi12 on Jan. 8, 2021, 2:49 p.m. 10 comments

How much weight do you assign to online and long distance relationships? Do you think they are valid relationships? More specifically, valid enough that one's ability to enter such kinds of relationships would mean that they cannot label themself a femcel. We'll assume that both people know what the other person looks like cause they shared pics and social media.

Submitted by Urbantexasguy on Jan. 8, 2021, 11:07 a.m. 7 comments

I was curious to see what some of the so-called "fatcels" here thought about this girl's video. Does she have some legitimate points about men being shallow, or is she creating her own problems, and setting expectations too high, by "catfishing"?


Submitted by tyg9 on Jan. 7, 2021, 8:54 p.m. 26 comments

Is it a viable strategy?

Submitted by shyguysombero on Jan. 7, 2021, 6:20 p.m. 37 comments

Can be from a book,TV show , anime, movie, play or video game?

Submitted by RottingAway90 on Jan. 7, 2021, 4:22 p.m. 81 comments

There are plenty of old and ugly people in the world, however most of them obviously aren’t crippled by self loathing and in fact many of them are confident and comfortable in their own skin.

I know that I’m ugly, however I also suspect I have body dysmorphia because it’s probably not normal to fixate on one’s appearance to the extent I do.

Anyone else kinda get tired of BDD being romanticized as “hot person can’t see their own hotness”?

Submitted by Liftingwitdepression on Jan. 6, 2021, 10:46 p.m. 20 comments

Just wanted to see if you ladies had any favorite type of music or song? When I feel a little down, I listen to a ton of oldies lol, so bonus points for that. Other than that, how does everyone deal with the ever looming presence that is loneliness?

Lonely people congregating and analyzing the reasons they feel they're outcasts from society will surely have some cultural effect down the line. What's your take on the future of the blackpill

Submitted by STEM--Celibate on Jan. 6, 2021, 2:03 p.m. 86 comments

When I say online I mean every platform: Instagram, Discord, Reddit, Facebook, videogame lobbies etc.

Has it ever got to the point where you needed to actively be less friendly in order to avoid men catching feelings for you? Why do you think men act so lonely and desperate online? Why don't women appear to be as desperate as these men?

Submitted by Riled_up_Blackfyre on Jan. 6, 2021, 12:35 p.m. 47 comments
Submitted by thing- on Jan. 6, 2021, 12:35 p.m. 3 comments

i just started one today and i'm hoping it will be helpful. iop is intensive outpatient program for those who aren't aware.

Submitted by Riled_up_Blackfyre on Jan. 6, 2021, 7:42 a.m. 44 comments

We’ve had the ol’ talks about race and ethnicity and things quite a bit and I got thinking about accents

Are there any in particular which push your buttons, tickle your pickle or softly, gently caress your eardrums with their beautiful cadence and sound and nibble your ear lobes

Submitted by Riled_up_Blackfyre on Jan. 6, 2021, 7:35 a.m. 33 comments

Just curioussssss

View Poll

Submitted by Riled_up_Blackfyre on Jan. 6, 2021, 5:56 a.m. 139 comments

Anybody in fiction. Mainly looking at personality since I’ve previously asked about fictional crushes. That said these guys can still be good looking ofc but I don’t want it to be ‘just’ looks

Submitted by ihatebeingfemcel on Jan. 5, 2021, 7:30 p.m. 41 comments
Submitted by Happylittleshadows on Jan. 5, 2021, 5:38 p.m. 23 comments


You are trying to shut me up for criticizing misogynistic societies where women have no rights that i come from and live in calling it “ignorance” and “multi phobic abuse” makes you what?

I didn’t mention the religion even tho it is a misogynistic religion which i left and live amongst it and have to still confirm to it’s rules because i have no other options

You are the ignorant asshole you threaten me to permanently ban after i explained where i come from because you look dumb admit you were wrong you didn’t ban me because i cussed you made the reason clear in your comment on the thread and all your reasons are fuckin wrong and you need to correct yourself or remove yourself from the sub

Submitted by FairyisNSFW on Jan. 5, 2021, 3:36 p.m. 74 comments

But I'm just creeped out in general by men, the way society socializes us is so unequal especially when it relates to finding relationships/ sex.

People ask me why I don't have a bf or they say they can't imagine me in one, which is correct cause I can't imagine myself in one either...but a big reason is an extreme distrust of men and an extreme dislike of the norms that surround sex and relationships.

Youth is so praised for women as a sign of their worth, that it is disturbing. You are supposed to be between the windows of age 16-25 to be maximally attractive to Men. You are supposed to be small, pale skinned and hairless...//Women//....I mean, girls, are supposed to be submissive (and I don't mean sexually), demure, quiet, pure, less intelligent, less wealthy, less sexually experienced, preferably virgins...to be maximally attractive to men.

It just comes across to me as a very unhealthy, predatory, manipulative combination...and seeing so many men uphold these beliefs is disturbing to me.

They are constantly trying to edge the bounds of pedophilia and child s*x..with "jailbait", "barely legal" "xxxtra small childlike looking girls".....I find it so disturbing...and so many men are like that to the point that it just disgusts me.

and before dumb men come here to defend their gross behaviour with eVoLuTiOn, Evolutionary Psychology is bullshit.

Submitted by BrosMadd on Jan. 5, 2021, 3:29 p.m. 22 comments

I see bromance and I see fight to the death for even the tiniest slights between the same people

I see demonizing "simps" and I see defending a man's right to do whatever he wants to the death.

Men are "not allowed" to be emotional and yet, there is endless hazing if a man is showing emotion. And if they don't do it to his face, they will do it behind his back and respect him less for it too.

Displays of fondness can be so wholesome and tender but also "just jokes" with friends are needlessly brutal and rival the bitchiest teen mean girls.

I may give them shit on here but I would like to understand male friendships better, even if its for my own ends.

I don't understand men's modern relationship with masculinity and friendship.

Like on Reddit, a lot of tall men virtue signal for short men because conceptually they understand that an immutable trait is unfair. Those same tall men are on Tinder like "I'm 6'2 if you care" or, in person, making pity jokes to the girl they want about short men. Or! In a group of men, you see them naturally extend more respect for the taller or "physically superior" male before considering the merit of smaller guys. They do this then come flap their gums on Reddit about how terrible women are for being attracted to whatever

There is also the very loud loneliness and clear desire for more friends. Why is the default to rely on women when there will always be things we are not going to understand? Why can't men cultivate friendships with other men more often?

You're a peculiar creature, if I must say, some very delightful and some abhorrent. But there are some similarities across the board and since some of you will talk here the way you refuse to elsewhere, tell Giga what is this

And for the cucks who are gunna "women do it too", let us not. I'm pro woman but I'm also pro me. For example, I understand the instinct to protect femcels and to shove a dick riding pick-me (not all, just the loons) in front of a bus. Just answer the question as it pertains to you

PS. Behind the scenes, I've been witnessing some of the most outspoken misogynists of the manosphere purr like kittens to women 1 on 1, literally throwing their brocels under the bus and communicating like normal people. What part of the game is this

Submitted by Mochimouf on Jan. 5, 2021, 1:57 p.m. 30 comments

I'm half Asian but still counts. The Asian beauty myth does not apply to all of us.

Submitted by VrHastaLaMuerteBaby on Jan. 5, 2021, 9:57 a.m. 16 comments