I hate the pressure to tell people your pronouns or to have a solid gender identity! I feel entirely disconnected from the idea of gender identity. I'm quite feminine and understand that I fit into the social category of "girl" but I don't feel any deep connection to the nebulous concept of womanhood, nor to a particular set of pronouns. I'm not agender or anything, just a person with a female body. People can perceive me how they like. Why is that so hard for people to understand?
79 comments recovered from the Pushshift database.
Well, you have no gender identity which means you're agender?
I get it tho like why the fuck do people care so much about something so personal, just abolish gendered language ffs.
I wanna transition but I already see the people asking "so what are you", because I won't pass perfectly.
I wish people just shut the fuck up about these things.
Edit: Why the downvotes lol?
-On a detransition sub talking about wanting to transition and suggesting to someone that they are trans.
-Talking about abolishing gendered language.
You must be lost.
I get that people who want to transition won't be appreciated here, but how did I suggest they're trans?
Like not having gender identity is literally being agender.
And what's wrong with me wanting neutral language? Less pressure on OP and trans people.
Agender is an identity that is actively apart of the trans umbrella under the non-binary category. You probably didn't mean it that way but that is how a majority of people will interpret your statement.
The human sex categories of female and male are inherently non-neutral due to the biological differences between the two. Sex is not gender and gender is not sex. Gender is social and changeable while sex is unchangeable and biological (at least at our current state of human evolution).
Well at this point what does transgender even mean, that would just being non binary because agender is not gender but lack of gender identity. Not collecting stamps isn't a hobby.
Yes, I know what sex is and that it isn't same as gender. You still have sex, but if you're without gender identity, lack of this internal feeling makes you agender.
Some people believe that if you don't identify as the gender or sex you originally started out as you are transgender. Thus following their logic not having a gender means you are transgender. It doesn't really make sense when you think about it but this is the belief of some people within that community. The same thing happens with asexuality and aromanticism being apart of the lgbt+ community.
I feel like this whole thing starts with the problem of defining cis as people who identify with whatever they were assigned at birth. Key word: identify. In my experience the most prevalent cis experience (my friend group is mostly liberal cis hetero people) is not thinking about gender at all. If you ask someone non-LGBT why they think they're their gender, they're likely gonna say it's what they were born, and there's nothing deeper to it.
So going by this, in the absence of the conscious identification part with female or male, they're technically nb/agender. "Hold on, maybe they're trans!" If all those cis people are trans, then no one and everyone is trans lmao and the whole gender theory system falls apart.
You see how this muddies things up.
And that's what I see in OP's post - not being an agender trans person (yes, agender = trans under nb umbrella), but being a cis person who's not into the sudden insistence that gender is such an important concept that we need to state our pronouns before interacting witch each other etc.
The thing is, I wouldn't label agender as transgender.
But if they just don't have gender feelings they are agender really, "I don't believe in God, I'm not religious and I think it's not true, but I'm not atheist".
This just sounds like agender person being gender anarchist, which I can relate to , what does it mean to feel like being a woman or a man? You can't define it by biological characteristics, because that would be male or female, and referring to someone's genitals or chromosomes seems to me just objectifying and wrong and I wish it just didn't exist.
If transgender = doesn't id with what they were born, and agender = doesn't id with what they were born bc they don't subscribe to any gender, then agender falls under transgender.
Yeah, but like I just wrote: not having gender feelings is an extremely common cis experience! People who are entirely indifferent to any discussion of gender, which is most cis people, don't have them. Where is the material difference between them and an agender person? Is this really being a gender anarchist if your typical guy off the street will also say 'idk about this gender thing, I was born this and that's it"?
It's best to just not suggest anything about someone on this sub. Agender is a transgender term, as HauntingBowlofGrapes explained. Many detransitioners and desistors simply want to get away from all labels and simplify their life. I also don't identify as a woman, because I just am a woman, which would technically make me fall under Agender but I don't give a damn. I am me. End of story.
As for abolishing gendered language: that's impossible. You'd be destroying so many languages and culture by doing that. Romantic languages are exclusively gendered. That's just the reality and has coincidentally become an issue as of the last decade. There's no point in abolishing it when we could simply remove the negative connotations of gendered language for ourselves. Girl and boy just refer to female and male, i.e. biological reality. Why fight language when we could have an easier time arguing with our biases? Why force everyone to conform when we could change ourselves, which is infinitely easier?
Anyway, I'm keeping your comment up because you seem to not have ill intent.
Ok I understand that, the person probably just wanted to vent, tho like denying it to me is just silly "I don't believe in God and think he doesn't exist, but I'm not atheist or agnostic", no one says you have to identify that or disclose it or even care about this label, but you're still included, but I guess that especially when you're person who detransitions, which must be very painful process, you don't want to hear these things, so I guess I'm insensitive, it literally sounds like when MTF trans women are told they're males, like it's true, but doesn't mean you should say it. Plus I didn't know that it puts you into transgender category, I thought you just have some feeling about your gender to be trans, not lack of it.
Also identifying as woman becomes meaningless label at some point, because you can't deny someone's gender identity based on biological characteristic, if you don't go by genders, then you're just female, tho according to some definitions, woman is adult human female, which is true, but probably not how you mean it, point is, word woman became more of a gender than sex thing.
Well the thing with gendered languages, boy, girl are valid identities using pronouns, which is respected, and because we respect gender identities, then we must respect all of them, which means new pronouns and grammar... I'd rather just have neutral language because pronouns feel kind of objectifying, "let me know what genitals or chromosomes you have, or internal feeling you have so that I can address you properly", in the first place you're a person, human being, it doesn't matter if you're male/female/intersex or whatever race you are, it's your own business no one should care about. Not to mention grammatically gendering literal objects is silly to say the least, "yeah the chair is totally feminine, she"
Keep up the good work mod. Nice to see a comment wasn't purged.
Men and women are not the same. Even if you wanted to do away with he/her, new terminologies to differentiate between the two would arise because its a matter of convenience and motive.
To be blunt, if your a guy who's preference is for female genitalia, knowing who that is or isn't, means something to you. It matters, even in the smallest of degrees. When and how did this somehow become an offensive concept that needs an entire rewriting of the culture and of language? Seems like its done more harm than good.
If it helps: that is how most cis people feel. The vast majority of people know they are female or male and don't feel any particular way about it. They don't necessarily connect to womanhood or manhood, they just know that their sex is X and that they don't feel discomfort with their sex-identifying physical traits and that's that. When they dress in a gnc way, they don't think of it as gnc. When they have hobbies or likes that "don't fit their gender", they just think of it as being a part of their individual self, and not as being a sign that they are not a woman/man.
I am not saying that's your case since you're desisted and have your reasons for that, and the fact that you mention feeling no connection to any pronouns (most cis people wouldn't like being misgendered), but I am only mentioning it because it is totally normal to not "obsess" over your gender identity. To many people, the thought of even having to think about it is unfathomable.
Speaking from personal experience now, the talk online of having to connect to your gender and really feel like you're that gender brought up my anxieties around gender. I never once thought I was trans before that, but then because everyone kept talking about how all cis people must constantly feel like a woman/man made me think that maybe I wasn't cis, since I just looked at myself and thought of myself as, well, a human being. I had (and still don't have) any dysphoria around my body. I know I am a woman and I am fine with that, but I don't actively think about my gender. I don't feel some kind of intrinsic connection to the concept of womanhood, I don't feel any intrinsic connection to other women or a pride in the fact that I am one. I just live my life, as myself.
The fact that I am a woman is, to me, the same as the fact that I have blue eyes. I don't have any strong throughts about it either way. It doesn't determine who I am, how I dress, what things I like, what people I like, or the way I behave (from a personal perspective -- of course being a woman and what it encompasses determines how society perceives me, but that is a different conversation altogether).
What does desisted mean?
Desisted means someone who had once questioned their gender identity or still questions it, but never went through with any form of transitioning.
I'd say the flair is mostly to show the difference in experiences between someone who went through some form of transitioning (whether social, medical, or both) and those who never did.
To stop identifying as trans without having undergone medical transition.
Neither do I. I am simply female. That's my biological reality. There's no need for a gender identity, it's redundant.
This is exactly what I've been saying since detransitioning hahah. It's strange to me now how I spent so much time over the years stressing about gender. It feels much better and makes more sense for me to just not identify as anything. Though I have somewhat more of a connection to womanhood now I still don't want to "identify" as anything. I'm just whatever, but living as a woman. Hahaha
Yeah most people don't consciously identify as anything, that's normal. How many times a day so you think about your race or nationality? Before this whole trans movement, gender was about the same. I've come to terms with the fact that I will always be female, and there's no rules on how a woman should be, just stereotypes.
this is how most people are. don’t overthink it.
This is very relatable, I am struggling with the thought of all of this during my own process of detransition. I think part of it is why I’m having a hard time letting go of my original transition, I held on to the social identity of male so long that I don’t know what it’s like to just “exist” and be “myself” without putting so much label on what being a man or a woman means. I’ve tried telling myself it doesn’t matter what I am or what I look like/present as…it just matters that I’m a good human. It’s just difficult because I haven’t found the basics of myself through it all, gender was a small piece and a major distraction. :/ I hope that made sense?
The only reason this is a problem for you, OP, is because a lot of loud voices "out there" are saying it is. Most people don't identify as a boy or a girl; they identify as themselves with all of the personality traits, hobbies, roles they're placed in, etc.
I really wish more people would admit this outright. If gender is part of your identity, then maybe you are cis or trans, but I feel like there are a lot of people who are silently neither, and probably being harmed by this idea that everyone has to have a gender identity. There's no reason whatsoever that gender has to factor into your identity. Even those of us who do identify much more strongly with a particular gender would probably be better off if we realized we can still be a whole, complete person without that part of our identity.
I don't think most people are agender or something like that, like do you think most people would not care if they were born as different sex with the same brain?
People definetly have some identification with their gender.
I think that we are all humans. we have groups of traits that is associated with either femininity or masculinity within our culture. Most people do not spend much time even thinking about this if their personality and traits fall neatly into the pre-approved list of traits laid out by that society. If the traits someone has are not as easy to put into one sex or the other then it can cause a rift between how you are “supposed to be” versus how you are. So then we see people saying, “am I really a female/male?” So it’s not that people would not care if they were born into a different body. They would care if their traits didn’t line up with the norm which made meshing with society more difficulty
No--I don't think most people would care if they were born as a different sex. They would never know anything different. I don't believe in the idea of pink and blue brains. For all the studies that show intrinsic differences between brains, there are at least as many that show that the differences are mostly hormonal. It also harms people to say men should be one way and women another. The people who inevitably don't fit that mold end up feeling like outsiders, even if the underlying truth is that a lot of people are actually different from gender stereotypes.
Suddenly waking up as the opposite sex, is a bit different. People have spent a lifetime of socialization in a certain body, with certain relationships, sexual orientation, etc, that would all be uprooted. Sudden, dramatic change is a lot to take in. Some people would likely be traumatized, some excited, some scared, some happy, some mournful. People's relationship to change varies a lot, but I don't think any of this is specific to gender. If you up and changed something else major, people would react differently too
A lot of people don't reflect very deeply so this is admittedly very bad science, but when questions related to a sudden sex swap come up in mainstream reddit subs (AskReddit, etc), a large percentage of people don't care at all. The only thing they think of are the practical affects of their life. For a lot of people sex is a matter of fact reality, and then, my perspective is that for some subset of us, our identity latched onto this, creating gender.
Yeah the brain differences sounded not convincing, because I didn't know if they looked like that pre or after HRT.
Gender expression expectations definetly hurt, but it's obvious that lot of people identify strongly with gender or at least expression - masculinity and feminity, and want to fit the expectations, men in general desire muscles and beards and toughness, and women beauty... There's definitely "being a man or woman" culture, how to be gentleman, how to be lady. People are definitely pressured into presenting in certain way, but many people just don't consider themselves without "gendered feelings", you can make the argument that things like clothing are ultimately genderless, which is true, but people still use it as social construct to fit expectations, and those that don't like it just go for androgynous fashion.
I probably make myself sound bad, but at least in my country and culture, I presume this is mindset people have, because there is social system based on how much masculine and feminine you are and you get benefits from that.
Yeah... I think that heavily gendered culture exists in most countries. It expresses completely different (e.g. Iran vs France), but they all have their own versions of masculine and feminine and what it means to be a man or a woman.
The first question that pops to mind for me is why do people care about presenting strongly masculine or feminine? To be liked more? To fit in? To feel like they're a good person? To attract a partner for sex or a relationship? I don't think boys are born wanting muscles, and girls born to be pretty--we all want to be attractive, whatever that looks like, loved and lovable, by ourselves and others, and to not be an outcast. Then we grow up trying to dress, diet, work out, etc, to look a certain way to achieve our goals.
This is just my personal theory, but I feel like if we lived in a single-sex, androgynous society, it would solve a lot of the problems we have as a society with sex, gender, feminism, etc. We'd probably have an entirely new set of identity problems to deal with, though, so it's mostly just a silly hypothetical.
From personal experience, I desired masculinity, because I know there's just like a "coolness" being attached to it when you're male, I like women and I presumed that can give me most amount of potential partners and respect among other men, family would be proud at me for being good manly man a gentleman, but at one point in my life I changed my mindset and stopped living for other people, and the idea of doing things for others started sounding very unappealing, despite my desires for masculinity, there was always a very feminine part of me that I wanted to be appreciated in me rather than masculinity...
I still love masculinity and definitely didn't stop desiring it just to be cool, but I want to get rid of that and be more authentic, not because it's cool, but because it's me (and that's cool). I'd still identify as genderfluid person tho, I mostly want to be feminine, but I have strong emotional connection to both.
I think most people would be VASTLY more freaked out and upset if they woke up 10 inches taller (or shorter) or 80 lbs heavier, or ten years older, then they would be if they woke up the opposite sex. Which just indicates that it would be freaking weird to wake up in a different body, not that there's any particular metaphysical thing that exists that is "gender".
There's still something that bothers me about this, trans people who "feel like different gender" since very young age, like 3 years old, how does that work? Would those people just be lying? What causes someone to dislike their sex?
Do you think gender dysphoria is mental illness?
Cultural pressures probably. I think a theoretical person who spent their life in a cultural vacuum with no parental influence would probably be pretty indifferent to whatever body they are given.
Do you think it can't be cured with current medicine?
I feel the same but with a male body. Part of me wants to transition but there is a vocal majority in my life that will tell me it'll end terribly. And I don't fully identify with either gender, just would prefer the appearance of the opposite
same here. i lived as a trans girl/trans fem for 5 years tho, but now im taking a healthy step back and more time to think what’s really necessary for me. presenting both girl and boy now, but deep down not identifying as either. it’s kinda cool
I'd love to be able to present as both tbh, but for me I'm not sure if I could wrap my head around it; I'd want to fully commit and be passable too
i get it, still adjusting to this myself. don’t wanna feel like there’s 2 people/genders inside me when there is only one (or none lol). i have a very androgynous style, girl-look just also gets a wig and pretty silk dresses haha
Exactly . For one, we need to stop focusing on gender identity just as a society/a generation. It dawned on me recently that 'GENDER IDENTITY' IS NOT FUCKING IMPORTANT OR INTERESTING. There are so many much more beautiful and interesting things in this world that we can explore and discover , but instead we're focusing on genitals and "feelings". Who cares, frankly? Especially nowadays? We re much less limited by our biological gender these days than ever before, so imo we should obsess about it LESS, not more, like people seem to unfortunately be doing. Clearly they're filling up a deeper hole in their life or identity with the shallow activity of gender exploration
Totally!
Blunt, brutal, and accurate.
Not bad.
I'm simply me. No craziness. I like tarantulas, plants, I have cats... That's it. I don't need a fancy title. Save the title for the skeleton war when I go necromancer
I am much older than most commenting on this sub, I can tell you for a fact that prior to the 2000s, no one thought about gender, it was just an interchangeable word for sex, and everyone was the sex they were whether they liked it or not and no one really cared to spend any time thinking or worrying about it because there was nothing you could do about it anyway.
The reason this changed is bc medical and cosmetic surgery techniques improved to a point where some people could actually pass (sort of, sometimes) as the opposite sex. But they did not want to be thought of as just a masquerading faker wearing the costume of the opposite sex, they wanted to be actually believed and accepted as the opposite sex. Therefore they came up with the idea of "gender" as some metaphysical, internal, subjective state of being that expressed one's "real" sex and should be taken as and treated as more important and authentic and true than the biological reality of sex. And now that trans people have asked everyone to accept gender as the real state of one's being and more important and vital than sex, it opens the door for everyone else who is not interested in body modification to have to describe and take ownership of a "gender", even though it's frankly an irrelevant concept for anyone not interested in modifying their body.
Very interesting discussion.
I agree most cis people don't even know the term cis. And if you don't want to talk about gender, then cisgender and transgender are terms you want to avoid. But I think in this sub, while the rule is certainly not to encourage transition, there is a recognition that many trans people have a genuine discomfort with their agab, and do totally feel like the opposite, and their pursuing transition is the right choice for them. Detrans people, as we know, exist and are valid and should in no way be devalued or ostracized. But the same holds true for trans people who feel their choice was right for them, and hold to that view throughout their lives. Some people make a mistake, and they should by all means correct their mistake, but others didn't make a mistake. So I'm just saying this so that we don't invalidate people who think differently.