QT: Why aren't trans men trying to get into men's sports or men's prisons?
Submitted June 23, 2020, 3:16 p.m. by NommeNommeNommeIt seems like trans men are often ignored in the debate about equal access. If a trans man is convicted of a crime, should he be housed in a men's prison or a women's prison? If a trans man is athletic, should he compete in men's sports or women's sports?
If there is a difference, what is it, and how is it different from trans women wanting access to women's sports and women's prisons?
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They are. There are professional trans male athletes in mens' sports. Schuyler Bailer and Chris Mosier are the first I can think of offhand.
Not QT, but some of them are, especially when it comes to sports. Chris Mosier, Schuyler Bailar, and Mack Beggs are the names I can think of off the top of my head. I think few transmen, when the rubber hits the road, would want to go to a men's prison. Sweating and struggling and suffering to straggle along in the lower middle of the pack is one thing; being raped is another.
Wikipedia has a decent list.
that’s a staggering difference in numbers.
This is from link #4 of the first random name I clicked on that list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keelin_Godsey
So on Wikipedia's list of "notable trans men athletes," there's a woman who spent seven damn years trying to get everyone to refer to her as male while specifically choosing to continue to compete in women's athletic events. Awkward...
agreed. I also dislike that we (wiki editors) can't use the pronoun they used at the time. No one seems to mind when i call women their maiden name in biographies, though. So it seems like a double standard.
....... And if they say gender critical feminists are transphobic bigots for including trans men in the women's categories.
So Bailer got into Harvard as a woman's swimmer, they took a gap year to transition, and it was made clear they could go on either team, but their numbers were actually worse as a man, so they probably would not have gotten into Harvard as a swimmer as a man.
Harvard would have looked really bad if they had let Bailer know that they couldn't play if they transitioned, We both know that.
I agree, no way would a uni change the scholarship, unless there was a caveat that they needed a certain performance level to keep it.
It's pretty aggravating reading this from her - in the context of competitive sports - they went from a placing female athlete to, effectively, a pity position where a special exception was made for them, even though frankly, they sucked - Like it embodies how much of a special snowflake thing this is - I'd love to hear from other swimmers who got 15th and 17th respectively, and how they felt and how their teammates felt for them.
Anyway here's the interview excerpt -
In an interview on the Ellen Show, Bailar said that while he has not been as competitive in men’s heats in comparison to the dominance he showed when racing against women, he doesn’t mind. Bailar admits that while he is no longer placing first, he is holding his own in races, defying people who support barring trans athletes from existing as themselves.
While some people may argue that trans athletes fight to change which gender category they compete in for an advantage or other external reasons, Bailar is simply living life in a way that feels true to himself and because the sport is important to him. Along with being a swimmer, Bailar has become a public speaker, and aims to raise awareness about transgender youth in sports.“I was just ecstatic and it was as much glory as I would’ve gotten in first place. Probably more, because I was myself.”
— Schuyler Bailar
Bailar has found that having the support of his team and improving on his own personal times can be just as exciting and rewarding as a medal.
“In my last meet, I got sixteenth place, which obviously is not first place,” Bailar said with a laugh. “But the whole team was on the side of the deck and they jumped up and were screaming for me because I dropped a lot of time from my best, so I did really well relative to myself, and I was just ecstatic and it was as much glory as I would’ve gotten in first place. Probably more, because I was myself.”
Interesting. I found the interview with Ellen on youtube. They said their women's coach let them switch teams claiming they wouldn't be healthy for them to be "a woman in the pool, and a man at school." So, got them into the men's team. I wonder if the women's coach sensed that the other women wouldn't tolerate it. It sounds like Bailar's times are still getting faster, in general. BTW, the images suggest they swim the fly.
This is what intramural sports are designed for - not NCAA collegiate athletics.
Bailar isn’t even close to winning against men so if anything, transmen largely represent a diversity position on teams (which basically never happens in college athletics).
They are
This one is easy. Spaces are sex-segregated to protect women from men. Men don't need protection from women, so a transman isn't a threat in male spaces.
So transmen who are convicted should go to men's prisons? Or should trans people get to choose which prison to go to? Should cis people be able to choose which prison they will feel safer in?
I would put trans men in women’s prisons.
I would let them choose which locker room they wanted.
I’m undecided about rape shelters.
If trans women belong in women's prisons, why shouldn't trans men be housed in men's prisons?
If it is based on safety concerns, why aren't cisgendered people given this same option?
Trans women belong in men’s prisons. Prison should be sex-segregated.
Because if you put a pre-op trans man that still had a vagina in a men’s prison, they would be raped mercilessly.
and if you put a transwoman with a penis in a women's prison you don't see how there's a similar risk? Even post-op I think it poses an unacceptable risk to female inmates. Male socialization does not just go away, particularly in a prison environment.
So you agree that male prisoners pose a risk to female prisoners? And that for the females’ safety, they should be housed only with other females? I agree.
Trans & gay people should be housed in their own separate wings/units IMO. Especially in men's prisons. I think that's what happens currently in American prisons (for the most part). Trans & GNC males get housed together which works pretty well for them. But in other countries trans-identified males are definitely fighting for & winning transfer to women's prisons which is terrifying, especially considering that some of their crimes involve murdering women & they're openly anti-TERF.
Oddly, you don't see many trans-identified females in prison...at least not on the many, many prison shows we have on our programming lineup. They tend to get brushed over just like lesbians in the LGBT community. I honestly don't know WHAT they're pushing for in terms of prison housing. They definitely would look out of place in women's prisons if they've taken testosterone but would be open to rape, impregnation & other serious risks if put with men (because men are vile even to each other). I'd propose they get their own separate spaces or solitary confinement/protective custody if there aren't enough of them to make a separate wing.
There should not be any chance of inmates impregnating each other, period. You can’t get the morning after pill in prison and in many places can’t get an abortion.
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People belong in the prisons that correspond to their biological sex. Trans men would be in danger in men's prisons, and trans women present a danger to women in women's prisons. No one is actually safer being in the presence of men.
I think this depends on when they transitioned, and level of transition.
I'm a trans man who had been in a men's prison for 6 years and I gotta say the prison rape/violence trope is greatly exaggerated. It's fearmongering. I was never assaulted or raped in prison. Furthermore prison showers have stalls with curtains - complete privacy.
What country were you incarcerated in may I ask?
If it was the United States, which state? Federal or state prison? Minimum or maximum prison?
Denmark
I saw the name Florian and I realized you were European. My cousin in Germany is named Florian . I’ve only briefly visited Denmark (many years ago). It seemed like a much saner and less violent country than America. So I can believe that your prisons rarely are violent places.
Denmark is orders of magnitude more civilized to its inmates than other places. The prevailing attitude in the United States is that rape and violence are an expected part of the punishment of incarceration.
How much did you transition? Top and bottom surgery?
Top surgery and HRT only.
I would not believe prison in Denmark to be the same as prison in the US.
It's obvious even with testosterone trans men are weaker than natal men, and if they didn't have SRS they would be in greater danger of sexual assault in a men prison.
In Sports I don't think there is a difference, transwomen don't belong in women sports. But in prisons there is a difference because they are in greater danger of sexual assault, moreso if they had SRS.
I think that they have to be looked up case by case, for example no transwomen with a sexual assault record or pedophilia could go to a women's prison ever. No transwomen without SRS belongs to a women's prison either. And so on.
It's because the primary condition most trans women suffer from is autogynephilia and that is a condition whereby the male simply must emulate real women completely and in all things. In fact, even in the 80s it was observed they refer to their vaginas as vaginas and things like that. In an Iranian study it was even identified that a majority of trans women have coincidences of narcissistic personality disorder and this all feeds into the burning need and belief that they belong in female spaces. Now these things have not been identified in women, autogynephilia may exist but it hasn't been identified and for me that's the key difference between men and women trans
Yeah that sounds academically rigorous and sound, especially when you don’t even provide the actual study
I have serious doubt that a proper psychiatric evaluation has ever been done across a representative cross section of trans population. Diagnosing NPD isn't trivial--it's not like taking an online quiz, or even something you can properly do in a 1 hour therapy session. You'd have to get a substantial number of trans women to participate in several hours of therapy by qualified experts (not just a psychologist, but one skilled in PDs). What funded this? What was the goal? Not impossible, but I'm definitely skeptical of this kind of statement.
Most of us acknowledge that we're weaker and smaller than most biological men and we're at risk going to a men's prison. If I got arrested right now, even though I pass 100% of the time I'd much rather go to a female prison than a male one since I haven't had lower surgery. After lower surgery I feel like that might change though, but only for the comfort of the women and not necessarily my own comfort. I don't plan on going to prison though and I'm not athletic at all so I guess I don't really have to worry about it anyways.
Does this mean TW should go to male prison because they are stronger and bigger than biological women?
So following this logic, do you believe that trans women who have penises should go to men’s or women’s prisons? Especially given, as you said, women are weaker and smaller than most biological men and we are at risk being housed with biological men in prison.
Most of the time they should go to the men's. The only cases I'd say they should go to the women's is if they've had GRS and pass fully, or if they transitioned as children. It's kinda tough to have one definitive answer though, since there really is no one size fits all for the questions. There are trans women who have the stature of a bio woman and transitioned young, bypassing the typical male socialization and there are also trans women who look and act like men.
Thank you for acknowledging the diversity.
They are going into mens sports and in countries with decent prisons, also into prisons.
I think its very us centric that trans men avoid male prisons(havent heard it happening here in Holland)because Who wouldnt avoid that shit place if they could
A woman only prison is not a safe space against male violence for everyone that feel threatened. Only biological women should be held in it, no biological men, and transmen with or without SRS should be in a women prison but in a separated way. Just like the gays and vulnerable men in men's prison have their own unit.
For sports, transwomen always say that with testosterone blockers and estrogen they body literally schrink, their hands and muscle get so smaller that they is no difference with biological women, so I guess trans men that take testosterone should build so much more muscle density and get bigger over time to compete with biological men, no, no ? Of course no.
Trans men should compete with cis men though
Well, they cannot compete with women for sure. So they only is men's sport. Except if they are willing to not go through a medicalised transition.
Ugh, what is up with GCers invading QT spaces
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They very clearly are. Look at Mack Beggs. I noticed that about half of the stories about him misidentify him as a trans women instead of a trans man. Obviously it's mainly GC and conservative sources who "misgender" him rather than LGBT sources. Maybe this confirmation bias and fake news is why you haven't heard of it?
Everybody in QT has heard of Mack, he's a big talking point.
Didn't she quit wrestling as soon as she would have qualified to play on a man's team?
Relative lack of entitlement
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Whoops wrong section again.
Whoops!
What a jape!
Trans men are not trying to get into men’s prisons because they would be raped. Trans women are trying to get out of men’s prisons because they will be raped. The problem is the men in the men’s prisons.