QT: do you realise that more and more change of words results in the erasure of homosexual people?
Submitted June 24, 2020, 7:45 p.m. by redditisannoyinqIf transgender people do recognize that sex is real why is it taboo to accept that a trans man having sex with a woman is a homosexual sex act? The opposite is true.
Really if that’s not true then that is at it’s very best erasure of homosexual sex acts.
I really don’t think many trans gender people are aware of how much they don’t want to realise that they not really at peace with sex.
I made a comment on the sex subreddit and was downvoted to oblivion. I don’t know if it’s your allies or what
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I'm curious to know which sex subreddit you posted it to? Though it's kind of nice you didn't get banned to be honest
Oops just got banned now, it was a comment on r/sex
Here it is
People are really upvoting that and giving them awards??? All because they slept with a transwoman? What is wrong with reddit.
It's wrong to pressure people into having sex with trans people, but also let's ban everyone who says anything aginst our ideology - and if OP had either 1) refused or 2) said it was gay sex (thus invalidating his partner gender identity) then OP would have been 'YTA'
You get brownies points to have sex with trans people but called garbage if you refuse because they are trans. But no pressure!
A response just says 'RESPECT' and has for now 80 upvotes
Is this an accomplishment? Because if TWAW then all he did is straight sex - now straight sex gets 'RESPECT'? Or, maybe it was gay sex, but apparently saying that will get you banned.
This feels like a joke about 'it is not gay if you wear socks' or stuff like that. It is not gay if one says they are a woman.
(Special kudos to the nearly 30 yo man saying that post op transwomen have vaginas, not *neo*vaginas even, just vaginas.)
Well now that they have changed the definition of how sexuality works it’s totally not homosexual sex. As long as one of them has long hair and is wearing makeup it’s not gay!
It’s been deleted because you were banned.
Sex is one of the most misogynistic, disgusting subs on Reddit. They're constantly telling women to push their boundaries for men's pleasure. Any comment going against the grain is deleted and banned. It's a libfem shithole. It makes me so mad that impressionable young girls are going there for advice, since it;s 99% horny pedos.
It's blatant homophobia at the expense of gay people and women OP does not want to be known as a homosexual, and therefore the mods banned anyone that insinuated that the sex he was having was gay.
Yup. When I first posted about my sexual assault under a different account in sex 4 years ago. I was asleep and woke up to my bf fingering me and then trying to insert his penis. I actually had a freeze reaction and had a mental breakdown from it. Sex told me to quit overreacting and be grateful he wanted my body versus cheating. They even mocked me for feeling trauma told me if i slept with him consensually it couldnt possibly be traumatizing for me to wake upt to him using me as a toy.
So true. I used to frequent there a fair amount and never do anymore. It's probably also the common side effect that happens whenever a subreddit gets too large - the quality degrades and the trolls emerge. It's very clear that many of the users there value "good sex" over almost everything else, including discussion about BDSM and the like.
Comment was removed, do you remember off hand what you said?
I said, “You had a homosexual sex session my friend. You might be heterosexual or whatever but that which happened is a homosexual sex.”
I bet FIVE whole Freedom dollars on that he got a blow job or gave anal and didn't once touch his date's dick. Being a pillow princess doesn't make you WOKE.
Yeah this is one of my biggest issues with the trans movement, I’m a homosexual female....I will never be interested in males.
Somebody taking a bunch of hormones, having plastic surgery and wearing women’s clothes isn’t going to change that.
It reminds me of conversion therapy, truly it does.
The more people say "I'm a man and I menstruate, and if you are a gay man you must be attracted to me," it becomes much easier to just say : "no, you're not a man, you're a woman." Same with transwomen. The more that TRAs want to change language, the more people will just give up entirely on any courtesies
If we redefine sexual orientation based on being about gender identity (even though most people don’t have a gender identity so you are just going to substitute in their sexual and claim it’s their gender), in combination with this idea that you don’t have to do anything to transition other than identify as the opposite sex, you end up getting circumstances where unambiguously male people who present as males can have very obviously homosexual sex and call it straight if one of them self-IDs as a woman. And then you have very obviously male-presenting male who has taken no steps to physically transition having PIV sex with a female and calling it lesbian sex, calling himself a lesbian, entering lesbian spaces and insisting he is just like them and for them to even talk about things that are inherently female is just “privileged cis lesbians punching down on trans lesbians.”
They do, it’s just more complex than “XX or XY”.
It isn’t more complex for homosexuals.
Or anyone who understands basic science and/or hasn't got an agenda to push.
Not this again. Are you going to go on about SRY genes and intersex people? Or amorphous gender identities?
Sex, for 99.7% of the population is determined by their chromosomes. In extremely rare instances, there's an anomaly. This has NOTHING to do with trans people. You're all regular people. Deal with it.
0.3% of people is 21 million. That’s more than the population of the Netherlands. That’s like saying you can just draw a map of the world and leave out the Netherlands.
That's not the issue, though, is it? The issue is that for everybody except these 21 million people (the population of the NYC metro area) XX and XY tell the whole story. The rest is just gender stereotypes, personal preferences and pseudoscience.
The other point is that trans people are not intersex and that intersex conditions have NOTHING to do with transgenderism or trans-sexualism. NOTHING.
But you can’t just ignore those 21 million. And I’m just proving that sex is more complex than that.
You need to talk to some New Zealanders. They're regularly left off the map
Humans are born with ten fingers and ten toes, correct? We are a biologically a pentadactyly species. But there are birth defects in our species and 1 out of 500 (almost the exact same number as intersex!) are born with more (condition known as polydactyly) and some are born with fewer (condition known as oligodactyly). We aren't trying to argue that humans are not a species with a wide-ranging variety of fingers and toes - we can understand a birth defect when it doesn't support our political desires to erase a biological truth that challenges our mental health or religious belief.
We can do the same with legs - we're a bipedal species despite the birth defect of having more or fewer legs. Similarly with arms! We can really do this all day because for every biological truth of humanity, there are birth defects - which is what disorders of sexual development are - it does not prove transgenderism. Sex is XX and XY and the complexities beyond that are birth defects - just like those who have more or fewer fingers, toes, legs or arms.
Whoops replied in wrong section.
can somebody please lay out their realistic scenario in which acceptance of the transgender movement's language and how that inevitably leads to "homosexual erasure" and how that ends up negatively affecting gay people?
I'm not trying to be combative, I just really want someone to lay it out in plain English.
Look at the post the op is talking about, the original op has had his first homosexual encounter and enjoyed it, five years ago we would be celebrating the fact that he's bi but now all the comments are telling him he's 100% straight and anyone not confirming this is deleted and banned from the sub.... Can you really not see this as gay erasure?
It comes down to one side believing in homoSEXuality and the other one believing in well, I guess it would be "homoGENDERuality".
First camp believes that you cannot change sex and hence a male sleeping with another male is homosexual sex, no matter how the second male dresses, identifies or what body modifications they have had.
Second camp believes that sex either plain doesn't exist (TW that say they have a female body, were born female and have always only been female) or that sex is completely unimportant in attraction. Instead they believe attraction is based on how you dress and what "gender" you "feel" like. Hence, a male who sleeps with a male who tries to look like a woman, or who doesn't but says he's a woman inside, is a heterosexual male. If you identify as something else other than woman, man, TW, TM, then it gets really complicated what to call yourself. I think at that point most of them just call themselves pan
The top comments I read didn't mention anything about his sexual orientation and, honestly, why should it matter? There seems to be this weird obsession with labels on both sides of the debate that I just don't understand. So the guy went on a date with a trans woman and enjoyed it. Who cares if he's gay or bi or straight?
And, once again, lay out the explicit negative impact. Just saying that we're not identifying people as being gay when they do something gay doesn't stick out to me as a terrible consequence of transgender language acceptance.
Gay erasure is a bad thing, we tend to try and not erase oppressed minorities for a reason.
And this kind of transgender lanuage manipulation is directly effecting LG n b's by contributing to the homophobic guilting/pressuring lesbians into forcing themselves to be intimate with male bodied people and vice versa.
Also comments did mention his sexuality, a commentor said 'do you consider yourself gay or straight?' and op replied, I might be gay, who knows, and the proceeding comments were everyone telling him he isn't gay. 🙄 Would be nice is op can come out and everyone be accepting instead of denying his sexuality. Of course all those comments were deleted by mods including op saying he might be gay because ya know wrong think.
I hear a lot about this but I still don't see the homosexual erasure part. I'm very against anyone being pressured into intimacy with another person, regardless of how they or the other person identify. That, to me, is a separate issue from what label somebody wants to go by or what other people consider someone's label to be.
I don't think people should be pushing to insist someone is "straight" anymore than to insist they are "gay". I think it should come down to the person to adopt the label they feel the most comfortable with.
Calling homosexual sex, straight sex is gay erasure.. Gay erasure =bad.
This ^ leads directly to this..
but this isn't the direct fault of the transgender movement though. its a consequence of our deeper understanding with which we realized there is some difference between sex and gender. do we even know if a male-attracted individual is attracted to a penis? or to a masculine presenting person? is one a signal for the other? what happens when/if the world reaches a point where there are no outside signals for the sex, is everyone bi?
A man had sex with a post-op trans woman that has a dick, and is calling it heterosexual sex?
Presented plainly, the two people involved in the sex both had a penis, and by definition this is gay sex. Homosexual sex insinuates sex between the same sex organs, and this is what he is describing.
I guess a lot of "straight" 🙄 men are really happy about this trans trend because they want to sleep with men but are homophobic and don't want to get the icky gay label. It's the same regressive bullshit that tells little tomboy girls they must secretly be men instead of just gender non confirming girls.
Kind of a combination of both your points... I believe straight men are also embracing the trans trend because of the way trans activism seeks to redefine lesbianism.
I’m just speculating here... Trans activism certainly seems political.... but at the end of the day, it might be less about politics, and more about increasing sexual opportunities for men. (while also decreasing the amount of critical thinking expected of them.)
Why is it so important to label someone? there are lots of guys on Grindr who call themselves straight when they want a blowjob. I personally find it funny but who gives a fuck what they consider themselves?
Well I'm not gay so I can't speak for gay people but my understanding is that it's harmful because it makes being gay a choice. If this "straight" guy can get it on with a male, why can't the gays just choose to be normal!!!
I don't see how this leads to sexual attraction being considered a choice. Just because someone chooses the label they want to use doesn't determine who they are and aren't attracted to. I consider my self bi, but it doesn't mean I find all women or all men attractive.
I'm just not seeing the slippery slope here.
A lesbian walks into a lesbian bar, except half of the "lesbians" there are male. It's no longer a place for her make friends, find potential dates, or let her guard down among other women like herself; it's a minefield of fragile, entitled males with genderfeels and girldicks. But because they call themselves lesbians, of course they are lesbians and of course they are entitled to be at the lesbian bar.
The lesbian turns around and walks back out.
Thank you. This is the kind of thing I was looking for. I definitely see the negative impact, though this feels more to me like "natal lesbians losing their exclusive spaces" than "erasure of homosexuality as a whole", but I think that's really besides the point.
The types of exclusionary spaces that are acceptable is quite a contentious issue. Whereas people on the left usually see white-only spaces as inappropriate, black-only spaces are permissible since they facilitate solidary among a marginalized minority. Women-only, especially lesbian-only, spaces make sense for much the same reason, but that is made more complicated with the existence of trans people and their insistence of their own marginalized minority status.
Honestly, the whole situation is something I still grapple with, so I appreciate a forum like this where I can ask these sort of questions.
If lesbians means both women who are same-sex attracted (homosexual) and men who are opposite-sex attracted (heterosexual), how is it not erasure of homosexuality?
I guess I could see that, but I don't want to get into a whole debate about who is and isn't woman, since I've seen that play out a thousand times, so let's just say I accept your premise. If this erases homosexuality, it also erases heterosexuality, right? Essentially, all labels for sexuality become meaningless because anyone could find themselves attracted to someone who identifies as whatever they want. Beyond the result of women losing their natal lesbian exclusive spaces, are there other negative impacts that come with this erasure that I'm not considering?
Is that not bad enough or something?
Then replace "woman" with "biological females" and when we're talking about lesbian "biological females" attracted to other "biological females" who are oppressed for being homosexual, if the word woman or lesbian gives you discomfort.
Homosexual people are an oppressed people with specific organizing needed to achieve equality under a system that oppresses them for their sexuality. Heterosexuals are not. Erasing heterosexuality doesn't harm an oppressed group. Erasing homosexuality impacts and harms an already marginalized group.
How is it more complicated? If a white woman walks into a black exclusive space, she doesn’t get to stick around because she’s also a minority.
If a trans woman walks into a lesbian space, it doesn’t make sense to tell her she gets to stay because she’s also a minority. I have a lot of empathy for her and her lived experience but that doesn’t change the fact that lesbians as a group are vulnerable and marginalized and need their own spaces.
My experience with "black exclusive" spaces is that they do tend to allow non-black people into their spaces, so long as they are willing to participate in and listen to conversations relating to black issues. In the same way, anyone is allowed into a (men's) gay bar, but straight guys have to be prepared to have gay men hit on them. I know there are a number of black people and gay men who wish to make these spaces even more exclusive but, as far as I understand, they have been limited to using these soft approaches to discourage participation from people outside of the minority group.
Still, I sympathize with natal lesbian women wanting exclusive spaces where they can meet and date. It's not something I personally relate to, but I can see how constantly being hit on by men can become tiresome, especially when you want nothing to do with them. Even so, the whole "who is and isn't a woman" debate makes this more complicated, for me, and I have yet to decide where I stand firmly on the issue.
Totally fair and reasonable.
In full disclosure, I too am still processing, learning, and deciding where I fall on this issue (and many others).
As a general rule, I don’t want to hardline anything. I don’t necessarily think that a lesbian who dates a trans woman ceases to be a lesbian — but my mind is also not 100% made up. But I can have this mindset and also see the need for lesbians to be able to assert their sexuality without being called transphobic.
When you say some lesbians like dick you are erasing homosexual and making everyone pan. Like Rachel McKinnon saying only pan was moral because it included trans people. Plenty of stuff in twitter whet lgb peopl are being encouraged to be fluid, to be with someone based on gender and not sex. Telling gay youth they need to examine why they incorrectly think men can’t have vaginas because it’s somehow society’s warped view of gender or sex. Not because they have a biological orientation toward the same SEX
There is no such thing as a "natal lesbian" there is just "lesbian" which means adult human female attracted to an adult human female. There is no such thing as a male lesbian, a trans woman lesbian, or anything of the sort. Lesbian has a specific definition.
Homosexuality means attraction to the same sex, not the same gender. So forcing lesbians to interact with trans women and consider them indistinguishable from women is in fact forcing them to be heterosexual or bisexual, and is erasing lesbians and homosexuality.
You don't see this because you consider trans women to actually be women.
A lesbian logs into a dating app that is marketed as gay friendly, hopeful to find a potential partner out of the minuscule amount of women who are attracted to women. She is asked what her gender identity is instead of her sex, and what gender identities she’d consider in a partner. She fills out her profile, posts pictures, and decides to start looking at matches. Out of all prospective matches in the area, the vast majority of the profiles belong to natal men, the sex that she, as a lesbian, is not attracted to. Her inbox is flooded with messages from people she cannot physically be attracted to, and there’s all of six profiles total belonging to women. There are no filters to only show women, which is strange because this is supposed to be a gay-friendly app.
The lesbian deletes the dating app and tries to find a potential partner in real life. She heads to the lesbian bookstore- oh wait, that’s closed. The local gay bar is 85% male attracted or unavailable(combination of gay men, straight women, heterosexual couples on the prowl for a threesome, the random straight couple with a coupon for drinks who looks a little out of place, a bachelorette party here for the drag night, straight men, and sets of longtime partners who have been going here since the 1960s. When there’s another single lesbian there, she’s way outside your age range or your ex. Sometimes both).
She decides to blog about how awful dating as a lesbian has been, then goes to bed. The next day, she’s astonished to find her inbox flooded with comments. Maybe her experience is just that relatable?
Nope, apparently she “needs to educate herself” “transwomen are women” “lesbians can have penises” “it’s hearts not parts”, and she’s informed that it’s actually shallow and transphobic and misogynistic and fetishistic to only be attracted to women with vaginas.
None of this could happen if women, lesbian, and female kept to their original definition.
I am not a lesbian but I have a few lesbian friends who have indicated the issue is that these trans women and their presence is effectively chasing lesbians out of their own spaces (whether indirectly due to discomfort or directly due to hostility for not having sex with or considering them as potential dates) and leaving nothing but trans women behind.
I’m not either, just a bisexual woman exclusively interested in dating women (febfem).
I think so yes. The whole point of dating apps is to make it easy to sort and filter through potential singles, and it’s an exercise in frustration when 10% or less of the people on the app are women who are actually interested in dating other women (this is also a problem with straight couples looking for a third and women with ‘friends only’ on dating profiles, tbf). If dating apps make it impossible to actually meet a demographics needs, that demographic will give up on dating apps. Since lesbians are a tiny minority, and women use dating apps less compared to men, this won’t really affect dating apps bottom line so I don’t see that changing anything.
No one has any business getting involved in what’s going on between two consenting adults.
Also if you’re so worried about erasure, how do you feel about bi erasure in both straight and gay communities where the women are dismissed as straight and doing it for attention and men are just gay and need to come out?
Not a great way to argue, leading into whataboutism. What do you actually think in response to op’s question?
They used to be called "transexuals" for a reason. Most LGBT people would choose a trans person based on gender rather than based on sex, because most humans do not choose partners based exclusively on the chromosomes they have. Normal people use overall looks and personality. People in the gay community do not talk about "erasue"; it's mainly concern trolling conservatives who do this.
The fact is, a 1 to 1 trade to call a trans man straight in that example, and a trans women gay. There's no "erasure" going on, just a trade.
Except.. None of that is true, latest study shows that less than 10% of lesbians consider transwomen as viable partners same with gay men and transmen. In straight people it's an even lower percentage. So it seems that 90-100% of humans choose their partners based on sex vs gender. I guess the majority of humans aren't 'normal' (which is redundant).
And yes people in the gay community talk about erasure, in fact in the past year several organisations have been set up to help combat this.
Wrong, the gay community is DEFINITELY talking about trans activism and how it is attempting to erase homosexuality (in favor of their preferred, bisexual “homogenderality”)
I'm not conservative nor a troll. Most humans do choose partners according to the sex(es) they're interested in. Obviously that's not the only criteria because people have standards and preferences.
You can't seriously believe that since the dawn of time, people have been choosing partners based on "gender" when according to QT, you cant look at someone and guess their gender. You cant guess their gender based on personality. You dont know a person's gender until they tell you. So why exactly did most males end up with most females? Probably because the majority of people are hetero.
It's weird how you and the most fanatical trans rights advocates/allies talk out of your ass about what "most humans do". And then a GC person immediately contradicts you with research and science.
Do you ever feel shame and embarrassment? Do you ever stop lying?
I've asked 4 people so far for a source, and gave not gotten one yet. I can't help but notice you didn't post one either...
You're pretending that u/dontcry4me33 didn't give you one two days ago?
🙄 one that you need a paid account to access and nobody will give me a pdf of. Have you actually read it? Maybe I could ask you a question or two about the methodology?
No "most" gay people absolutely would not! Have a look at the study with dating trans people, the results speak for themselves.
Gay people absolutely do talk about erasure.
It's a HUGE issue in the lesbian community, and gay men are starting to get sick of it too.
Can you link me one?
In all the gay subs online, I dont see this, and even in my irl LGBT group this is never an issue. The only place I've seen it discussed is GC places like this one, made of mostly of older straight white women
But here, have another. This study was done by trans allies who are shocked, shocked! that no one wants to date them. It must be transphobia, they posit. It can't possibly be the gender-genital incongruity. Why no, why would that be off-putting to most natal straight and gay people? eyeroll
You didn't link the study, you linked an article. You need an account to access it. Can you send me a PDF, or did you not even read it?
Google it.
What makes you assume we are "mostly older straight white women"? This couldn't be further from the truth lmao
Nope gay people don’t like being erased. We aren’t attracted to the chromosomes we are attracted to the primary and secondary sex characteristics and 99% of the time assuming a man has a dick in his pants is gonna be accurate.
Ok... and that's going to include trans people of the "wrong" sex and disinclude trans people of the "right" sex.
Personally I feel more erased by the myriad of micro identities and labels that make the word lesbian mean all sorts of different things.
Now there are non-binary lesbians, bi lesbians, he/him lesbians, pansexuality, etc. There’s the issue of how to classify someone who likes both women and non-binary individuals. Some lesbians date trans men.
If someone tells me they are a lesbian I have no clue what that means anymore.
Relax. You can't be erased short of someone disappearing you and destroying records of your existance.
Anything else is just disagreement.
Pretty sure you know that’s not what anyone means by “erasure.” It’s about the erasure of an identity as a meaningful and salient category.
If your identity is "XYZ", that's your identity. Enjoy it if it's enjoyable.
But the concept of "erasure" you use is not about people having an identity, it's about others agreeing with, validating or accepting your identity. If they don't, which is everyone's right to not do, you will not be erased. If you really believe you're otherkin, transracial or the opposite sex, good for you. But you have no reason or right to expect society to play along.
You’re just describing what everyone is already talking about and saying it’s “not erasure,” I guess because you object to the word being used in this context at all.
But nobody is arguing that they cease to exist or cease to be lesbians.
You mean like what queer & trans activists are doing to lesbians when they insist that some of us can "like the right dick"?