I feel like there are two kinds of trans people...
DISCUSSION Submitted June 28, 2020, 11:37 a.m. by Aromatic-Salamander1There are the people who genuinely have gender dysphoria. That must be really challenging, and I truly hope they get the mental health care that they need.
Then there are the abusive, misogynist, narcissistic "trans" people who hate women so they pretend to be one of us so they can invade our spaces. This is probably also a case of mental illness or personality disorder, and I do hope they somehow manage to get mental health care for their issues. But they're also incredibly violent, and they're being disingenuous by pretending to be trans.
I feel like somehow, somewhere we need to start distinguishing between these two groups. Because the first group - I really feel compassion for them. The second group - fuck them.
Am I way off here? I've been learning a lot from this sub about things that don't show up in my day to day life. And I really think there are two profiles here: "true" trans people with gender dysphoria, and faux "trans" people.
Thoughts?
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I feel exactly the same.
Why? Why do we need to act as if some delusions give you the key to women's single sex spaces?
Oh I don’t think either should have access, regardless of it’s genuine or not.
I would add a third class to this: trans kids. From what I have read, most of the children coming out as trans (as early as 2-3y/o) is a way to change a potentially gay or lesbian child into a “straight” person. It also really enforces gender stereotypes. A young boy would rather play with dolls and pretend to be a mommy- now he’s a girl. A young girl despises everything feminine and would rather go outside and play in the dirt with trucks- obviously she’s actually a boy. A lot of these happen when the child is so young, they don’t have the capacity to understand what is happening. They go with it because their parents told them to and told them that’s who they really are.
Absolutely. It's regressive and sexist, and certainly homophobic.
I agree. Gender dysphoria is a recognised thing, and people who fit into this category are trans and should be accepted AS TRANS.
The problem is when gender dysphoria no longer became a prerequisite and it was replaced by "incongruence". Anyone can be any gender (or sex apparently, because it seems that's where the discourse is going), without any kind of scrutiny. Trans people who still feel that gender dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans are actually excluded from the community and labelled "truscum".
I've been watching quite a few trans youtubers for the past two weeks and I've come to the same conclusion. One YouTuber I saw mentioned how there should be a legal standard to be trans - which would include recognised gender dysphoria, and I agree with this 100%.
The standards at the moment are just based on incongruence and a vague feeling of being a woman. Someone who legally changes their name to a woman name and "lives their life as a woman" (whatever the heck that means) is a woman. It doesn't matter if they put no effort in actually trying to pass either, which seems to be the norm nowadays. I don't trust or really "accept" this type of trans people because they don't have a recognised problem, they don't want or try to pass, they actively try to push themselves in female spaces, and they silence biological women and transwomen who have gender dysphoria becuase they're a threat to them.
Why? Do we accept people with temporal lobe epilepsy as MESSENGERS OF GOD? It’s just a delusion. Like many mental illnesses it can be difficult to treat but that doesn’t mean we need to change society and language and actual science to make them feel comfortable. Mental is very uncomfortable. All illness is. That’s why they call it illness.
I think that's a discussion that needs to be had among medical health professionals. But if a man or woman has already gone through a full transisiton, desperately hoping to pass, to be accepted and included, and just trying to live their life, I think it would be a very cruel thing indeed to insist on keeping them out.
The currenty political climate wants to open the gates wide. They're already open, I don't think there's any use in trying to close them again because it would hurt a lot of trans people who already went through a lot of pain. But I think it's extremely important to establish some sort of gatekeeping, and to retain the ability to cast people out who misbehave.
Of course, logically speaking, you can insist on treating fully transitioned trans people like their biological sex (provided you spot them because they don't pass, not always the case with pre-puberty transitioners), but to me, that seems unnecessarily cruel with no benefit for anyone whatsoever.
Medical professionals are the Dr. Frankensteins who experimented on mentally ill people for their own gain. No thank you.
You're saying if a male gets his genitals mutilated he's invited into womanhood? You do know AGPs get surgery as well, correct? And they continue to be abusive just the same. Why are women expected to have anything to do with protecting males from other males? You just said you thought women can also be surgically altered males.
I think it's unnecessarily cruel to exclude someone who has gone through a complete transition in order to pass as the other sex, provided they behave like a human being. Where's the merin in excluding people who are inherently decent and have gone through a lot in their lives just for the sake of it? But hey, that's between you and your conscience. If you see it differently, fine by me. :)
You telling me I'm cruel and have a problem with my conscience is absolutely laughable libfem nonsense. There are plenty of places for you to spread this nonsense that males with enough surgery are women. You'll get lots of niceness points.
You want to open the doors and then put it on women to gate keep? Murderers and rapists transition. You empathize more with them than women and girls. Is it up to young girls to fight this dude off because he's 'gone through a lot in his life'?
https://www.womenarehuman.com/the-first-known-man-to-transition-gender-in-prison-was-a-serial-rapist-mass-murderer-of-women-richard-speck/
Again, this is a male issue. It is up to males to accept gender nonconforming males. Women have enough to deal with. We don't need more labor comforting males.
But why should people who have "gender dysphoria" be treated differently to people with all other kinds of "dysphoria"? After all, the psychiatric definition of dysphoria is simply "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life."
What makes the genderists' dissatisfaction with their lot in life worthy of special treatment when people with all other forms of dissatisfaction with life - much of it with a far more legit basis in reality - aren't catered to in the same way? Billions of people on the planet have been dealt a far, far worse hand by fate than the well-off sexist narcissists who are bemoaning how dissatisfied they are with their "gender" nowadays. Why is their suffering seen as the worst suffering of all?
It's not, but their disorder is now packaged as an unassailable identity, instead of an illness. It's definitely profitable for medical institutions and pharmaceutical companies. Even companies like Thinx are now making "period underwear" for transmen. Anything that is meant for a man or a woman- suits, shoes, personal care items, etc- could now be tweaked to cater to this population. Why would companies give up this new market? No one cares about what the treatment for gender dysphoria means down the road. From what I've heard/read from de-transitioners, even changing back sounds like a super expensive process full of complications and ongoing medical care.
Could you imagine if we called Anorexic people "plus-size" and set up exercise groups to make them feel "validated"? We would be murdering them. No return customers there........ that got morbid fast:(
I know all this. I was countering the argument that
Why should people who are dissatisfied with life due to issues with aspects of their "gender" be treated differently to all other groups of people who are dissatisfied with life for all sorts of reasons, many of them with much more merit? Why should they be "accepted" as the opposite sex or some new sex? Why do they and their fantasies deserve to be given special accommodations and privileges in law, public provisions, health care, etc? Why do trans people get to trample all over other people's rights and demand the whole world buy into their belief system?
Absolutely. The first group just want to live their lives as best as possible and recognise that they're not female, the second group want to live OUR lives and don't care about collateral damage.
so im not a boy then....?
Whether they feel they genuinely suffer from "gender dysphoria" or not is irrelevant. Of course the same revulsion shouldn't be leveled at the first group for the struggles they share with the 2nd group, but gender ideology in its entirety is baloney.
That one group are averagely decent human beings who don't harass and intimidate us doesn't mean that the mental disorder they're grappling with is any less steeped in sexism and nonsensical gender theory. I don't discriminate between the two in that regard. I don't care what they do so long as they stay far, far away from women's and children's spaces.
Couldn't agree more :D
Standing up and applauding this comment.
Except it doesn't. Suicide and self reported dissatisfaction do not decrease post transition. And "transition" is nothing more than disrupting and continually suppressing a person's normal physiology. What other medical "therapy" actively disrupts a person's perfect health? based on mind/soul BS at that?
There is no medication that can fix being fundamentally and diametrically opposed to material reality. When I was a young child, I wished I was white (being the only black kid in a rural European town is hard). Bleaching my skin, hair and wearing contacts would not have made me appear European. I would simply be a botched, visibly black person like MJ. The root cause of my issue, that I wanted to blend in and be considered conventionally pretty or decent looking by the standards that surrounded me, would never have been met. I would simply have become an alien in both worlds - neither blending in with the whites, or my own ethnicity.
Similarly, what transgender people (which is in itself a misnomer, since what they wish to be is the opposite sex) are similarly not alleviated of the problem that is the root of their discomfort - which is that they don't possess the physical form of the opposite sex.
They either will never have children or face great difficulty in doing so, will have a drastically reduced dating pool, the overwhelming majority will always stand out like a sore thumb, and on and on. HRT and well meaning strangers indulging them with pronouns will never fix the issue. If you can't opt out of your age or race (things that are much easier to forge in fact - see Rachel Dolezal), you most certainly cannot opt out of your sex.
We already know that the presence of GD is nearly always concurrent with factors like social isolation, low self esteem, childhood sexual abuse, eating disorders, OCD/ASD, a variety of personality disorders, and more. Medicalizing people to avoid having to deal with this cacophony of mental health issues is the height of medical negligence. Not only does it fall at the first "do no harm" hurdle, but it doesn't even rely on evidence based practice. Only jumped up suicide stats and powerful lobbying.
This goes beyond even patriarchy. I believe we are living in an era where reality, the physical world as we know it, is merely a footprint and afterthought. It's no surprise that this movement is exploding in the internet/virtual reality era. You can be whoever you want to be online. And now, you can be whoever (or whatever) you want to be irl too, even if it is physically unachievable.
Well said.
What's more, it turned into a tumblr trend that means that young men and women who could be great role models through gender non-conforming behavior fall prey to the idea that they are transgender - which is only one step from starting to change their bodies even though many of them don't dislike theirs and are just led to believe that their mental health problems will all go away by transitioning.
100% agree. They are only seeing the world as black and white: you're either 100% for their cause or you're against them. Heck, even the transmedicalists have been ostracized because they don't follow the party line.
The TRAs should be looking for solutions that accommodate women but also benefit the trans people. Maybe that means installing more single stall bathrooms, or working for all bathroom to be these single units so we rarely have to worry about anyone intruding in the space and can handle things like washing off menstrual blood in private-- I know that I will never feel comfortable doing this in a typical public restroom. Many of them can kind of view the sinks from the opening that lacks a door.
I think it's incredibly dangerous and apolitical to say there are two trans groups when the first one represents an extreme tiny minority which is only being included/exploited as a justification. In the process of doing this, trans deceptively calls a great many more of their own "dysphoric," raising the actual percentage of way below 1% to say 40%, thus pathologizing their own members, and erasing the truly dysphoric.
Yup, these "some good trans" posts make me incredibly wary.
At least with the "some good men" comments, there is no attempt to say there are "two types of men." This is going much further than that.
Here ya go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology
There is one more.
Millennials who think that calling themselves trans is "in".
In my generation it was the emo, now it's the trans. They don't really feel either way, they just want to "fit".
trenders? Yes i hate them
Ray Blanchard, sexologist, has long separated them into two categories - males and females with childhood-onset gender dysphoria and men with autogynephilic gender dysphoria (AGP).
Here's an article on the topic: Gender dysphoria is not one thing
Most childhood-onset gender dysphoria has historically gone away by puberty - most such children turn out homosexual. The minority who did chose to transition then became the "homosexual transsexual" group. But parents are increasingly locking children in to a trans identity, and giving puberty blockers, which almost 100% prevents the dysphoria resolving. They're sterilising gay kids. (Puberty blockers are not any sort of treatment - they're effectively a cosmetic treatment to allow children to pass better as the opposite sex, but the impact on development is severe, and they lock in the dysphoria).
HSTS and AGP are largely the two groups you've identified.
That article adds the newer third category that seems to have appeared: rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), mostly in adolescent girls.
Trans rights activists hate the typology, and Blanchard, obviously. They don't like to be seen as they really are.
And I would say there's a fourth group of no-dysphoria "political trans" now - people just in it for the oppression points and lifestyle. Their behaviour, and that of allies, is kind of similar to the AGPs.
Thank you, this looks super helpful.
In my opinion, I genuinely don't care of a person wants to be a transwoman. The only thing I care about, is that they get to call themselves a woman. If they said something like gender is fluid, which means even though I was born as a man, I feel like a woman, but I understand that I have not experienced womanhood. I have the right to dress how I want, have surgery, etc"--I would be 100% fine with that. It is only when they feel they can then dictate what being a woman means.
We aren't allowed to criticize how they display their womanhood, which is largely hyper-sexualized and as a commodity, because they are too marginalized for us to do so. Well if you want to be a woman, don't you have to experience all of the shit that women deal with on a daily basis? If you want to be a woman, you should not be able to shield yourself from all of the criticisms that women get on a daily basis. It's like they want all of the excuses that being a "victim" gives them, but don't want to ACTUALLY experience the bullshit of being a woman. Because they are men, they don't have to, they can just dictate how society is meant to treat them. Funny that women have yet been able to do that for themselves, despite fighting for it for hundreds of years.
So I am NOT against trans people. I want them to have the best lives they can. I wish they could do that without appropriating women's suffering. We are so fucking oppressed that we are not even allowed to own our oppression.
ok whamen
Ok male. 👌
yes i am a very valid boy😎
Like 99% of the time it seems to be based on their sexual orientation. Actual homosexual trans people usually seem more sane, actually have dysphoria, and belong in the lgb community because they're homosexual. The transbians, soft gay bois, and enbys on the other hand... That's the part of the T that needs to gtfo. They mostly come across as fetishists, maybe they have dysphoria, who knows, most probably don't. They claim you don't need it to be trans anyway. Idk this is just what I've noticed.
Yeah, I agree. On one hand, there are the trans women who make constant threats of violence on Twitter to anyone who dares question the neoliberal status quo. On the other hand, there's my cousin's trans friend who last year, at 14, walked headfirst into traffic and killed himself. It breaks my heart hearing about that kind of stuff, and I think trans people do go through genuine hardships and should have mental health care that's genuinely trying to help them instead of putting a band-aid over it. Either way, I think trans issues should be looked at separately from women's issues and instead be looked at as specifically trans issues.
No. And the libfemmery and misogyny on this thread shows the propaganda is hard to shake. Some new users calling males she because they're friends. Proving that womanhood is maleable and not a real thing.
The incidence of the 'true trans' you argue was so low 30 years ago that most people would never have met a crossdressing male if you weren't in a large city. Now you have a huge boom and they claim dysphoria because it's trendy. How are we to gatekeep that and why is it our responsibility? Can you produce a single link of a male getting assaulted in the men's for wearing a dress?
Stop. Women are not failed men. Males need to work it out amongst themselves. There is no other delusional illness that we affirm. None. If a person really feels like a cat are you going to put out a litterbox?
How the hell are the libfemmy comments getting more upvotes than you?
This honestly makes me sad.
Libfems are all over this sub. I was just told I was cruel and should take it up with my conscience for wanting to exclude sad men who get surgery. LOL. In another thread, we had multiple women calling Julia Serrano, of all people, she. I get there are new users because of JK Rowling. I do give them some time once they've gotten here. But this great flood of libfemmery is diluting the discussion. Cult indoctrination is very hard to shake.
I don't disagree with you about the two types of trans people but either way, trans rights and women's rights are mutually exclusive. You cannot have both. It is a zero sum game.
I do feel bad for the "genuinely trans" people but not bad enough to give up my rights and the rights of generations of women after me. I also do think the genuine trans people are in minority and are mostly ftm. There are some mtf but not many. I don't have any evidence for this but based on my many conversations with random mtf trans on tinder, plenty of fish, ok Cupid etc the majority (90%?) are porn sick and sex obsessed. Again just my experience, YMMV.
When trans rights activists insist that being trans isn't based on dysphoria, or medical transition, or passing, or actually living out a specific social role, or socialisation... they make it harder for us to distinguish people we might be prepared to make exceptions for, and people who can f*** right off.
The only terminology that I feel is available to me is 'old school transexuals', which has fallen out of favour but what else am I supposed to call someone with real distress who has undergone some concrete physical and social transition, and whose behaviour seems feminine to me? How am I supposed to distinguish them from a male, masculine, domineering man who displays male pattern violence, who just declares himself a woman, if the current activism requires that I call them both of them 'trans women' and validate both their identities unconditionally?
No way. If there is such a thing as a trans identity, it must be a socially negotiated identity with its basis in real physical and social changes. Not self id or the unverifiable contents of someone's mind.
I agree 100 percent. The loud, mysoginstic trans women are the ones that keep their "lady-dick", bc it isn't true dysphoria, its.living their fetish. I dated a guy who was like this.
Types of trans people from what I can gather:
In males:
Sex dysphoria: hates their dick, probably an effeminate gay man. Highest chance of taking hormones cutting off dick and doing everything they can to pass. Suicidal. Mentally collapses when reminded their a man.
Autogynophilia: Masterbates with skirt on. Addicted to lesbian porn, wants to be a lesbian. Doesn’t understand why lesbians don’t want his girl dick. Rides the trans gravy train to fulfill sexual desires.
Sissy fetish: masochist, Also gets off to wearing skirts, loves anime, wants to be emasculated for sexual reasons, may be gay or straight. Probably autistic and thinks liking feminine things for sexual reasons makes him a girl.
I genuinely feel sorry for people who have a bodily dysphoria that causes them to want to go to such great lengths to change their sex. But a lot of them are riding the trans gravy train for sexual reasons in my opinion. Your told not to question why this man who gets erections from wearing skirts should go to a woman’s prison and things lime that.
you're thinking of autogynephilia (probably spelt that wrong): basically a large group of these men's sexual attraction doesn't function properly. They are attracted to women, so much so that they want to become the object of their attraction which then turns into frustration because it can never completely be achieved and when women reject this illusion they get violent and aggressive.
Psychiatrists used to differentiate between the two groups: the genuinely dysphoric were called transsexuals, and the AGPs getting their jollies off by dressing up in women’s clothing were known as crossdressers.
There used to be a joke in psychiatry -
Question: “How can you tell the difference between a cross-dresser and a transsexual?”
Answer: “ The cross-dresser shows up to their appointment all done up in a dress, high heels, nail polish, a fancy hairstyle, and a full face of make up. The transsexual shows up in jeans and a ponytail, same as all the other women.”
It would be interesting to know when these two categories were combined and whether it was done by a review committee or an influential group or something else.