15 comments recovered from the Pushshift database.
defending_feminism · June 28, 2020, 2:08 p.m. · 1 reply
TRAs are currently trying to claim Dworkin was pro-trans based on some of the things Dworkin wrote in her earlier works (Dworkin, like most of us, started out as a committed leftist who embraced some of these ideas.) But it's clear that by the mid 1980s she was firmly against gender ideology.
Here she is trying to get Nikki Craft's critique of trans ideology published. Here is a quote from the article Dworkin was trying to get published:
"The transsexual intelligentsia may fancy themselves to be agent provocateurs, subverting nature's implacable authority and radical transformers concerning sex, gender, body modification, and identity. However, transsexuals are more Uncle Toms of sexuality, devout in old-fashioned sexual stereotypes and taking a conservative position on nearly everything, including sexual relationships, sacrificing even sexual pleasure to be women...Money, ever the moral entrepreneur, aids the individual transsexual in mutilating his body to fit into sexist, restrictive gender dichotomies -- for a tidy sum, of course -- succeeding only in reinforcing preexisting inequalities."
Ond_Tvilling · June 29, 2020, 3:24 a.m.
Did Nikki Craft ever write the critique? I can't seem to find a list of her publications.
Everwaugh · June 28, 2020, 2:19 p.m.
Thank you SO much for this. I am saving for future use.
fxkatt · June 28, 2020, 3 p.m.
If it took Andrea Dworkin into the mid 1980s to arrive at her critical position, it was only because she was preoccupied with other pressing radical feminist issues (including writing & researching her books) and more importantly, because, despite Janice Raymond's book, trans-sexualism was a relatively minor radical feminist issue, and didn't take on real significance until transgender arrived on the scene with its powerful sexist ideology.
freshfew · June 28, 2020, 3:54 p.m. · 2 replies
Wasn't she a gender abolitionist?
It's weird to apply a recent term to someone after their death, when that term wasn't a thing while they were alive.
defending_feminism · June 28, 2020, 4:36 p.m. · 1 reply
I'm not sure "gender abolitionist" was a term at that time either? At any rate, someone who is a gender abolitionist is going to be critical of gender.
freshfew · June 28, 2020, 4:39 p.m. · 1 reply
Maybe not, but isn't that the essential position she took? That gender should be done away with? I might be wrong, but it sounds really strange to apply a current term. Like transing dead people...
Being "critical" of something suggests have issues with it and want to change it, not to abolish it entirely.
girl_undoneGryffinterf · June 28, 2020, 6:26 p.m.
That is not the reading of the word 'critical' women had when they coined 'gender critical'. Someone can be critical and abolitionist. Gender critical includes gender abolitionist.
Palgary · June 28, 2020, 7:56 p.m. · 1 reply
Read a summary of Julia Serano's Whipping Girl and her "Intrinsic inclinations model" - aka - gender is something you are born with that can't be changed by external forces.
I follow the actual science: The roles of men and women (gender roles) vary across different societies, even among different classes within the same society. They are learned - hence, "one is not born, but rather becomes, a woman". There were books in the 1930's that studied different tribes and reported on the different roles of women and men, and that became a huge foundation of feminism across the board.
That's what it means to be gender critical - rejecting the non-scientific belief that femininity and masculinity are something people are born with, instead of something they learn.
freshfew · June 28, 2020, 8:36 p.m.
I'd rather not read that book, given the author.
I agree with you (at least some of) the details, but the label is not one I prefer to use, because it suggests there's room for acceptance. Like we can be critical of a system, but still want it to exist. People who were against slavery were not "slavery critical," they were "abolitionists." More powerful of a word.
We're probably splitting hairs here, but the issue is more about applying such a label to someone who died before the phrase was coined.
LesbianPrincess- · June 28, 2020, 4:38 p.m.
🔥🔥🔥
girl_undoneGryffinterf · June 28, 2020, 6:43 p.m.
Thanks for posting! Interesting.
Isahaworth · June 28, 2020, 6:58 p.m. · 1 reply
TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN
defending_feminism · June 28, 2020, 7:10 p.m.
It bums me out that this is the level of discourse I've come to expect from you all 😂 I'm so curious, do you genuinely think anyone finds statements like that convincing?
DownWthisSortOfThing · June 28, 2020, 9:12 p.m.
The idea that Andrea Dworkin (of all people!) would be on the side of modern gender non-sense is beyond laughable. If she was alive today, she would be Queen TERF and the most hated woman by TRAs. These ignorant fools don't know what the hell they're talking about, as usual.
TRAs are currently trying to claim Dworkin was pro-trans based on some of the things Dworkin wrote in her earlier works (Dworkin, like most of us, started out as a committed leftist who embraced some of these ideas.) But it's clear that by the mid 1980s she was firmly against gender ideology.
Here she is trying to get Nikki Craft's critique of trans ideology published. Here is a quote from the article Dworkin was trying to get published:
"The transsexual intelligentsia may fancy themselves to be agent provocateurs, subverting nature's implacable authority and radical transformers concerning sex, gender, body modification, and identity. However, transsexuals are more Uncle Toms of sexuality, devout in old-fashioned sexual stereotypes and taking a conservative position on nearly everything, including sexual relationships, sacrificing even sexual pleasure to be women...Money, ever the moral entrepreneur, aids the individual transsexual in mutilating his body to fit into sexist, restrictive gender dichotomies -- for a tidy sum, of course -- succeeding only in reinforcing preexisting inequalities."
Did Nikki Craft ever write the critique? I can't seem to find a list of her publications.
Thank you SO much for this. I am saving for future use.
If it took Andrea Dworkin into the mid 1980s to arrive at her critical position, it was only because she was preoccupied with other pressing radical feminist issues (including writing & researching her books) and more importantly, because, despite Janice Raymond's book, trans-sexualism was a relatively minor radical feminist issue, and didn't take on real significance until transgender arrived on the scene with its powerful sexist ideology.
Wasn't she a gender abolitionist?
It's weird to apply a recent term to someone after their death, when that term wasn't a thing while they were alive.
I'm not sure "gender abolitionist" was a term at that time either? At any rate, someone who is a gender abolitionist is going to be critical of gender.
Maybe not, but isn't that the essential position she took? That gender should be done away with? I might be wrong, but it sounds really strange to apply a current term. Like transing dead people...
Being "critical" of something suggests have issues with it and want to change it, not to abolish it entirely.
That is not the reading of the word 'critical' women had when they coined 'gender critical'. Someone can be critical and abolitionist. Gender critical includes gender abolitionist.
Read a summary of Julia Serano's Whipping Girl and her "Intrinsic inclinations model" - aka - gender is something you are born with that can't be changed by external forces.
I follow the actual science: The roles of men and women (gender roles) vary across different societies, even among different classes within the same society. They are learned - hence, "one is not born, but rather becomes, a woman". There were books in the 1930's that studied different tribes and reported on the different roles of women and men, and that became a huge foundation of feminism across the board.
That's what it means to be gender critical - rejecting the non-scientific belief that femininity and masculinity are something people are born with, instead of something they learn.
I'd rather not read that book, given the author.
I agree with you (at least some of) the details, but the label is not one I prefer to use, because it suggests there's room for acceptance. Like we can be critical of a system, but still want it to exist. People who were against slavery were not "slavery critical," they were "abolitionists." More powerful of a word.
We're probably splitting hairs here, but the issue is more about applying such a label to someone who died before the phrase was coined.
🔥🔥🔥
Thanks for posting! Interesting.
TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN
It bums me out that this is the level of discourse I've come to expect from you all 😂 I'm so curious, do you genuinely think anyone finds statements like that convincing?
The idea that Andrea Dworkin (of all people!) would be on the side of modern gender non-sense is beyond laughable. If she was alive today, she would be Queen TERF and the most hated woman by TRAs. These ignorant fools don't know what the hell they're talking about, as usual.