How to even respond

NEED ADVICE/SUPPORT Submitted June 28, 2020, 3:08 p.m. by honey_sweetiepie

I’ve been spending a lot of time here reading and reading some radfem books. I’ve never really broached radfem topics IRL with other women - but today I (gently) asked a lesbian friend what she thought of the trans movement and if she felt any change in her lesbian only spaces, etc. I tried to ask in a really neutral way to not cause any controversy or fully out myself as gender critical. She just said “trans women are women... I mean what about trans women make them any less of a woman than you or me?”

I didn’t really know how to respond other than, thanks for talking with me lol. I have no idea how to respond to that kind of argument. The difference is they’re men. I definitely am more passive than a lot of the other posters on here, and am generally supportive of people living their lives as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. But trans women are biological men. If a lesbian friend doesn’t see that, idk what to do.

21 comments recovered from the Pushshift database.
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freshfew · June 28, 2020, 3:18 p.m. · 3 replies

"Well, they're biologically male, or they wouldn't be trans women."

You could also mention that most don't actually get any surgeries done, so they will still have a penis.

Or ask her if she'd date one, especially if they hadn't had any surgery.

If she's bought into the idea that men can become lesbians though, what really can you say?

honey_sweetiepie · June 28, 2020, 3:26 p.m.

It’s just disheartening I suppose. Like, I want to say those things, but I also don’t want to lose a friend.

honey_sweetiepie · June 28, 2020, 3:38 p.m. · 1 reply

Oh man, I just remembered another thing she said. That women who have a problem with trans in lesbian spaces are just “gatekeeping”. That also kind of clued me into the lost cause.

hepromised0307 · June 28, 2020, 5 p.m.

I would stay clear talking about it then.

Sounds painful af

shegivesnoducks · June 28, 2020, 7:27 p.m. · 2 replies

I know some TRAs point out infertile women. "So you wouldn't date someone who couldn't make babies?"

Still not the same.

If a man dumps you after finding out that you are infertile is pathetic and awful.

But i don't think that's the equivalent of a man dating a transwoman. Am I insane here?

freshfew · June 28, 2020, 7:32 p.m.

A woman who has infertility issues is still a woman. And there are women who don't have such issues, but who don't want kids.

Someone suggesting that women who have such issues aren't women, they're just perpetuating sexist ideas that women's only value is to get pregnant.

seasalt34 · June 28, 2020, 7:35 p.m. · 1 reply

Some men wouldn’t. Especially if parenthood is important to them. I don’t want kids and it’s a problem for a lot of men. I don’t act persecuted over it.

shegivesnoducks · June 28, 2020, 7:59 p.m. · 1 reply

Good point. I want kids but haven't had any yet, so I was just talking through that perspective. I mean no offense!

But im assuming men would assume you could have kids. Probably assume you want them (incorrectly) but i doubt it crosses their mind that there is no anatomical way it can't happen.

seasalt34 · June 28, 2020, 8:06 p.m.

I agree with the original point, it’s not the same (bio woman vs trans woman). But also refuting what trans people assume about cis people. We get rejected too- for all kinds of reasons. That’s life.

MarkTwainiac · June 28, 2020, 4:09 p.m. · 3 replies

"I mean what about trans women make them any less of a woman than you or me?”

How about this for starters: they have male sex chromosomes in every cell of their body, penises, testicles, prostates, male sensitivity to testosterone, male musculature, male skeletal size, male bone density, male grip strength, male strength more generally, male speed, male twitch fibers, a male shaped pelvis, male sex drive, male patterns of criminality, male proclivities for the sexual perversion now known as paraphilias, and have been raised and socialized as males.

Also, TW can father children with the sperm produced by their testes; many TW have indeed done this. Jenner, for example, sired six kids.

A TW is also less of a woman than you or me because all TW lack female sex chromosomes, ovaries, uteri, Fallopian tubes, cervixes and vaginas, and monthly variations in their naturally-produced female hormones. TW do not menstruate and will never know the inconvenience, embarrassment and pain of menstruation.

TW cannot become pregnant; they will never need an abortion; they can't gestate new life and give birth; they can't nutritionally sustain and provide immunity to an infant through breastfeeding; they'll never need maternity leave or benefits; they'll never suffer sex discrimination based on their female biology, such as maternity discrimination; they won't ever suffer childbirth injuries; they'll never risk their live or die in pregnancy and childbirth. No one will ever criticize shame a TW for not giving birth "the right way" or for not breastfeeding their babies.

TW will never go through menopause or peri-menopause and suffer the host of health problems that post-menopausal women often do due to lowered estrogen. Such as vaginal atrophy, chronic UTIs, pelvic organ prolapse.

To make the topic very current: as males, TW are many times more likely to get seriously ill and die from COVID-19.

There are 6,300 known differences between male and female physiology. There are probably more, but we don't know about them yet because females are typically left out of medical research since males are considered to be the default for all humans.

Many diseases affect one sex more than the other. But even when particular diseases strike males and females in equal numbers, the symptoms, trajectories and treatments are often very different based on the patients' biological sex.

honey_sweetiepie · June 28, 2020, 4:28 p.m.

This is an incredible comment and I really appreciate e time you took with this reply. I’m saving it for future use.

thoughtiddropin · June 28, 2020, 5:51 p.m.

Thanks so much, yup, saving this to use later.

Salty-Tomorrow · June 28, 2020, 6:16 p.m.

Great comment 💪🏼

GCMadamXXWomen Create Life · June 28, 2020, 4:16 p.m.

I guess I would ask what makes HER a woman. Ask for her definition of woman and don’t accept a circular definition. Ask her to define “woman” without using the word woman.

seasalt34 · June 28, 2020, 5:13 p.m. · 1 reply

I do think some women in the LGB space feel primarily marginalized by their orientation to the point that they have little empathy for straight women. I think they are loyal to people who identify as part of the lgbtq movement more than radical feminists (who I think have a mostly anti dv stance and focus on IPV in hetero context bc that’s where the majority of the fatalities and severe physical battering occurs). They think we are all privileged- esp if you are white and your lesbian friend is also white.

My lesbian friend says “people are just tired of hearing about cis hetero problems.” Ok, thanks?

honey_sweetiepie · June 28, 2020, 6:58 p.m. · 1 reply

That makes a lot of sense actually. I guess i thought that as a lesbian, she might be more likely to be gender critical as well, and I was surprised to find that wasn’t the case.

seasalt34 · June 28, 2020, 7:28 p.m.

I just broke up with 3 different lesbian friends over this issue. Honestly I think due to the lack of proximity from any men except trans women men they just don’t get it. I find a few of my ex friends hang out with a lot of gnc/non binary queer/poly folk too. They’ve never said monogamy is controlling or unnatural like I’ve heard a lot of straight and gay men say but they seem to think genital preferences are transphobic. Idk, I’m just straight and want a guy who doesn’t lie to me, cheat on me or hit me. If they think that’s asking too much I don’t want to surround myself with people with such low standards.

ImPiqued1111111 · June 28, 2020, 5:22 p.m. · 1 reply

"The penis, for starters."

NYCradfem · June 28, 2020, 9:56 p.m.

Hahaha!

mermaidarmpithairHuffleterf · June 28, 2020, 10:09 p.m.

Disconnected ideas:

Accusing THEM of transphobia first usually does the trick to either peak them or have them think more clearly. This is easy since the TRA movement is destructive to everyone.

Paraphrase more tactfully: “OMG, that’s trans erasure!! They have ultra-special experiences that we’ll never experience.“

Together, find an opportunity to discuss the history of Conversion Therapy, sort of a pre-requisite course for lesbian rage.

In any case, a pre-everything “transbian” could marry a ”lesbian” worldwide. Not the same for actual lesbians, so they will NEVER have the same concerns as her.